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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 01:19:45 +1200
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: John Gaul <nzts.nz at caverock.net.nz>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Possible Storms and Chase
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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At 00:51 24/09/00 +1200, you wrote:
>Howdy Folks,
>
>Here's the forecast for tomorrow from MetService to midnight Sunday 
>
>"For Canterbury, Otago and Southland: Fine at first apart from showers in
>Southland. During Sunday, cold, showery southerlies spreading north. In
>Southland, expect morning hail and snow down to 600 metres. 
>Afternoon thunderstorms with hail in Otago, spreading through Canterbury by
>evening."
>
>13 months and 2 days now since a thunderstorm here in Christchurch so I
>hope this proves fruitful!!!
>I have camera, car, NZTS T-shirts and thunderpants ready for action !!!!
>It's been so long, so it better be good.
>


Regarding the above storm, it was absolutely pathetic. We did get a good
drop of rain from it and a lot of snow fell along the high country. 
The worst attempt of a thunderstorm formation I have ever seen. 
Absolutely pathetic with cloud glaciating without doing much and any
attempt to build anything just running out of puff. However 3 lightning
flashes were recorded in a space of a couple of hours. ( You could of taken
a short nap between them but then you might of missed one?!!? )   I never
took any photos or video footage ( it wasn't worth it ) actually I didn't
go and chase either. Stayed at home and watched NZ get some bronze medals. 

Ah Well 13 months and 3 days now.
Roll on the next attempt to try break the thunderstorm drought here in
Christchurch, New Zealand


John Gaul
NZ  Thunderstorm Soc.

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: SE QLD T'Storm Report
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:22:33 +1000
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Hi Anthony, Jane & Damien,

1. Yes I was totally and unnecessarilly negative, I apologise to Anthony &
the list.
2. Yes Anthony, you are entitled to get excited and to share it.
3. You and Ben are to be congratulated for your perseverance in chasing on
Friday.
4. Friday's 0Z Skew-T would seem to indicate that 30,000' was about right,
if not 32,000' being the region of stongest jet, which the cell appeared to
reach and which was where convection should have been limited given a
surface temp of around 30C which is what would have been required to break
the cap.

Red face, crawl.

Regards,
John.
>snip

Hi Anthony + All,   I concure with  Anthonys' estimate of 30,000 feet as the
tops of fridays QLD border range Cb and the fact that it was lightning
active. Full marks for he and Ben for being interested enough to drive a
couple of hundred kms to learn from it ....That sort of dedication is the
life blood of this list.  To then be publicly criticised on this list and in
such a nit picking and unproductive way is particularly sad.. It just proves
that in every group there are spoilers. Now that we are on the verge of the
storm season lets remind ourselves that this list should be a means for like
minded folks to share their experiences and knowledge in a friendly and
supportive way. No matter what your level of experience or knowledge, we
would all lose out if informed enthusiasts, like Anthony and Clyve were to
stop contributing.  Damien Howes.                ----- Original
Message -----

> Hi Jane and John,
>
> Jane - here is living proof why I often downplay things, as to avoid
> these sort of cynic comments.  I get these personally too - yet if I do
> downplay them, I cop it the other way too...for some reason, I seem to
> be the only person to get this?  Perhaps time for me to look elsewhere
> for another list (Clyve, you said you were looking elsewhere too, did
> you find something?)...it would appear people don't appreciate/don't
> like what I have to say.  I'd like to be able to post things without
> these sorts of comments.  I'm allowed to get excited over what I like -
> right?
>
> Regards,
>
> Anthony Cornelius
>
> John Woodbridge wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jane,
> >
> > I think the photo's up close look much better than it did from a
distance.
> > I watched the cell develop from Sumner and decided that it wasn't even
worth
> > a photo let alone a chase, as it was obviously small, weak and fairly
> > uninteresting (this was the Anvil email I sent on Friday).  I am
surprised
> > that thunder was apparently heard.  I also rather doubt that the top was
> > anywhere near 30,000'.

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Brisbane-wx
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 02:41:50 +1000
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Hi All,

Picking up an ancient thread re expected differences between the Brisbane
Airport and Brisbane City site, today was quite interesting with a
difference of 4C around midday.  Today (Sunday) was one of those marginal
days, where a light dry NW'ter competed with the Seabreeze leading to
dramatic differences in temp and in particular, humidity, away from the
coast.  Todays readings around SE QLD at midday:

		  Temp     DP    (RH)
BNE Airport	  24.5   14.7    (54%)
BNE City	  28.4   11.1    (34%)
Amberley      30.8    2.3    (16%)
Oakey         29.4   -4.1    (11%)
----
Coolangatta   21.6   17.4    (77%)
----
Maroochydore  23.1   18.5    (75%)
Beerburrum    30.0    5.3    (21%)

Maroochydore is actually not that far from Beerburrum.

(Quite a strong SE change this evening has left temps around 20C and
R.H.>85% at midnight pretty much across the whole district).

Regards,
John.

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 13:56:04 -0400
From: "Leslie R. Lemon" <lrlemon at compuserve.com>
Subject: aus-wx: OFFTOPIC: MSC Updates
To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
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These are really great additions, Jane.  Sorry that I did not respond
earlier.  

Your creativity is showing......<S>!

Keep up the good work!

Les

************************
Leslie R. Lemon
Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist
Tel. 816-373-3533, 816-213-3237
E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "Phil Smith" <drdisk at hktrade.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: New Question: Re: AM radio static 
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 05:35:05 +0800
Organization: Doctor Disk
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Thanks everyone for your many insights.
The one I hadn't stopped to think about was the link between the original
radio station and the Tunnel Companies' repeaters.
I am almost always tuned to 567KHz (RTHK3) or occasionally to 675KHz (BBC).
Tunnels where no toll is paid do not have repeaters so the radio dies
instantly when you drive in and reappears when you emerge from the other end
whereas toll tunnels have music all the way through.
Andrew's and Tony's replies combined cause me to speculate that the three
tunnel companies with their tunnels under the sea are getting a direct line
feed to their repeater stations, whereas the six tunnel companies operating
tunnels under the mountain ranges probably have a regular aerial and radio
receiver set for each station which they then relay to their repeaters.
When I am deep underground and still a couple of kilometres from the exit,
and the lighting static suddenly builds up to a flash a second or more, I
often wish I had taken the slower old road that winds around the mountains
so I could see what's going on up there.
But then as all you guys would know, as soon as you have to concentrate on
your driving all the action always happens behind your car where you can't
see it anyway!
Phil
<><
Phil Smith

Director
Doctor Disk Limited
Unit B, 4th Floor, Imperial Heights
Belair Gardens, Shatin, NT
HONG KONG S.A.R.
People's Republic of China
Phone +852 2646 4672
Fax +852 2637 4006
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Home e-mail: drdisk at hktrade.com
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Typhoon Information: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm

<snip>

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "Glen O'Riley" <glen.oriley at linx.iwarp.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: New Question: Re: AM radio static 
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:07:43 +1000
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I could be wrong but I think one will find that a frequency so low will pick
up a couple of thousand watts and volts above head through rock but
considering that the water is salt as you said it is obviously connected to
sea (if it isn't one), and therefor any static that hits the water is
probably dissipated through the large volume of water that exists. Just my
2.2c worth.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <drdisk at hktrade.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 9:27 AM
Subject: aus-wx: New Question: Re: AM radio static


> To resurrect a month-old thread with a new related question:
> Every time we have a thunderstorm here, I pick up the lightning discharges
> on the AM car radio usually before they announce the hoisting of the
> Thunderstorm Warning.
> My question is about the effects when driving through tunnels.
> Many of our expressways (motorways, freeways) are built in tunnels beneath
> the mountain ranges or under the ocean.
> When driving under the New Territories mountain ranges during active
> thunderstorms, I can hear every lightning discharge going off and
presumably
> stopping when it hits the ground a kilometre above my head.  But when
> driving under Victoria Harbour to Hong Kong Island, I can hear the static
> going off every few seconds as I go down into the tunnel, but once under
the
> water, I get crystal clear radio reception without the slightest sign of
> lightning static.  As I drive up the ramp onto the island, I find the
storm
> is still going as strong as ever and can again hear every lightning stroke
> on the radio as it goes off.
> Can anyone put forward any suggestions as to why I can hear the static
> through a kilometre of rock but not through a hundred metres of sea-water?
>
>
>
> Phil
> <><
> Phil Smith
>
> Director
> Doctor Disk Limited
> Unit B, 4th Floor, Imperial Heights
> Belair Gardens, Shatin, NT
> HONG KONG S.A.R.
> People's Republic of China
> Phone +852 2646 4672
> Fax +852 2637 4006
> E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> Home e-mail: drdisk at hktrade.com
> Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
> Typhoon Information: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ben Jerrems" <beanzvision at hotmail.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2000 07:26
> Subject: aus-wx: Re: AM radio static
>
>
> > Hi all?
> >       Can anyone tell me a bit more about the static on the radio? I
> > understand that we can listen to lightning discharges as they happen,
But
> > every time I go out side to check the sky I get nothing! How far does
the
> > radio pick up this discharge???
> >
> >       Ben-MSC
> >
> >
> >
_________________________________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
> > Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
> > http://profiles.msn.com.
> >
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> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >
>
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie Weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: WEATHER: Melbourne
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 09:47:19 +1000
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Some nice heavy showers this morning moving through - 6.5mm to 6.45am in
Bayswater.  There have been some useful falls of between 10 & 20mm across
the state so far.  Some 10-20's & 20-40's to the far SW look a bit
interesting and there was lightning around last night.  Chance of embedded
storms later today.

The aviation forecast issued at 8.30 has a couple of tempters: -
ISOLATED THUNDERSTORMS W OF 145E EXTENDING REMAINDER AFTER 01Z. RAIN/
 DRIZZLE AREAS. ISOL CB 3000/30000 W OF 145E EXTENDING REMAINDER AFTER 01Z.

Enjoy the rain!!

PS: Victorians - keep your petrol tanks topped up full - blockades by
truckies at the depots won't help - so you might as well get in before the
panic starts this afternoon (it had already started by 6.45 this morning) -
and we all know that you can't chase on an empty tank <g>

Jane
---------------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
---------------------------------------

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
X-Originating-IP: [203.54.87.24]
From: "S G" <thunderday191 at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Adelaide t'storm today/tonight
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:09:06 CST
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<x-flowed>
Well conditions here in Adelaide are looking interseting for some 
thunderstorm development today/tonight.  The temperature is warming 
slightly, humidity is fairly high, feels higher than 66% and some patches of 
sun are creeping through the clouds for more heating.  The atmosphere to me 
looks fairly unstable as well and there are some fairly variable wind 
patterns.  A few novice indications of some weather on the way as well, lots 
of insects flying around outside and many trying to enter inside as well.  
The forecast suggests a thunderstorm is possible over the next 24hrs.  Well 
I can only hope!  I presume the upper level disturbance over eastern WA 
which is producing thunderstorm activity is also meant to lead to the 
increased chances of storms today.  The weather notes provided by BOM aren't 
clear on this.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
</x-flowed>
From: "Paul Yole" <pyole at australia.edu>
To: "Aussie Weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Anyone's thoughts on this........
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 11:36:45 +1000
Organization: ASWA Victoria
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"><BASE 
href="file://C:\Program Files\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\Stationery\">
<STYLE>BODY {
	BACKGROUND-POSITION: left top; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: #000000; BACKGROUND-REPEAT: repeat; FONT-FAMILY: Comic Sans MS
}
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<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff background=cid:001401c02691$1082e0e0$6a01a8c0 at rcppc1>
<DIV>Hey all,</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Ben Quinn just showed me this in IRC. Just wondering if this should have a 
SWA issued or something along those lines.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>OVERVIEW:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ISOLATED 
SHOWERS/THUNDERSTORMS DEVELOPING AFTER 02Z SOUTH 
OF<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MENINDEE/CONDOBLIN AND NORTHEAST LINE 
WALGET/NARRABRI.SOME RAIN<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DEVELOPING IN 
FAR SOUTHWEST AT FIRST,SLOWLY EXTENDING 
EAST.<U>POSSIBLE<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DOWNDRAFTS</U> LINKED 
TO TS.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>Maybe they don't consider downdrafts to be severe....I don't know. 
Thoughts?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Paul.</DIV>
<DIV>
<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#3366ff>Paul Yole<BR>Aswa Victoria<BR>0418 
369 256 <BR>pyole at australia.edu<BR></FONT></P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>


Embedded Content: back.gif: 00000001,5f132b2e,00000000,00000000
From: "Avo Ohanian" <Avo.Ohanian at mq.edu.au>
Organization: Macquarie University
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2000 15:00:23 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: RE: New Question: Re: AM radio static 
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> Can anyone put forward any suggestions as to why I can hear the
> static through a kilometre of rock but not through a hundred metres
> of sea-water? 

It's been a while since I did my Elec Eng stuff in Radio but here it 
goes. I suspect it has something to do with the way the tunnel has 
been set up to repeat the AM signals. As with the Sydney Harbour 
tunnel, Hong Kong probably has a special repeater network to re-
transmit signals using a "leaky coax" system. These signals will 
undoubtedly be strong throughout the tunnel.

AM radios use an automatic gain control system which will 
electronically control the gain of the RF amp (used to amplify the 
incoming signal). If HK does have a repeater system, then the radio 
signal will be quite strong throughout the tunnel and thus the AGC 
will turn down the gain effectively deafening the radio to the point 
of only picking up the strongest signal (ie the AM signal from the 
leaky coax). This is one possibility.

If both tunnels have a repeater system, it may be that HK (like 
Sydney Harbour tunnel) gets a direct feed from the source whereas the 
New Territories tunnel may repeat the broadcast signal thus also 
repeating any spurious and static noise.

Hope this "clears the air" on the static thingy...... :-) (I know, 
but I am in a weird mood and besides I am at work on a Sunday....)


Avo Ohanian,
ROMIS IT Support
Macquarie University

EMail : Avo.Ohanian at mq.edu.au
Phone : 9850-7234 (office)
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "clyve herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Cumulonimbus tops HOW HIGH!.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:16:35 +1000
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<x-html>
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all on the list.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Over the past few years I have often thought of how 
high&nbsp; a CB top can go. So I would like to open a discussion for all those 
interested in finding out how high CB tops can penetrate. Although there can be 
a comparison with CB tops maximum and the extent of severe condition that might 
be generated, this can&nbsp; at times not be the case I.E. the Sunbury tornado 
developed from a supercell with tops just reaching   30.000ft, however the 
Sandon tornado developed from a supercell with tops measured at 61.000ft!. The 
seasons of course were different with the Sunbury storm being a cold season 
development and the Sandon tornado being&nbsp; a warm season storm. So lets get 
our reference books out and our calculators and find out what the officially 
highest recorded CB top might be, I have heard&nbsp; of tops reaching in excess 
of 70.000ft. We can for the exercise categorise storm tops into levels.This 
classification is for maximum storm tops achieved ,to reach supercell status 
rotation must be established or observed witch I believe should be for at least 
50 minutes.so here we go.....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cat 0 storm tops 12.000 to 18.000ft ( some winter 
storms can be lightning active at these levels)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cat&nbsp;1 storm tops&nbsp; 18.000 to 
28.000ft.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cat 2 storm tops 28.000 to 35.0000ft.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cat 3&nbsp;storm tops 35.000 to 
45.0000ft</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cat 4 storm tops 45.000 to 55.0000ft</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cat 5 storm tops 55.000 to 
65.0000ft&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cat 6 storm tops 65.000ft and above (mega supercell 
! )</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Supercells can occur at levels even below 30.000ft 
ie winter type supercells ,so the simple classification which can be applied is 
when using maximum tops as an indication ,one can report&nbsp; for 
instance.....&nbsp; cat 3 supercell located near Ballarat&nbsp; with cloud tops 
approaching 44.000ft , rotation has been observed for more than 50 minutes 
.....there are occasion when non supercell tops can reach quite respectable 
heights some may reach  50.000ft or higher, in that case being non supercell can 
be reported as either severe multicell or severe storm.....i.e cat 3 severe 
multicell observed near Ballarat tops approaching 44.000ft..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would welcome improvements and comments so lets 
find out where the highest CB top has occurred.regards Clyve 
Herbert.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

</x-html>
From: "clyve herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Anyone's thoughts on this........
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:23:06 +1000
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>HI PAUL.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Fancy writing your using, fancy background too, I 
must say this forecast is a little unusual, but appears directed to those who 
would know what TS stands for i.e. air pilots etc. The downdraft forecast should 
be connected to the first line where thunderstorms are predicted and not hidden 
at the end of the bulletin or if at the end should be shown as a separate 
possible risk factor.regards Clyve H.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A href="mailto:pyole at australia.edu" title=pyole at australia.edu>Paul Yole</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com" 
  title=aussie-weather at world.std.com>Aussie Weather</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, September 25, 2000 11:36 
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Anyone's thoughts on 
  this........</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>Hey all,</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Ben Quinn just showed me this in IRC. Just wondering if this should have 
  a SWA issued or something along those lines.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>OVERVIEW:<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ISOLATED 
  SHOWERS/THUNDERSTORMS DEVELOPING AFTER 02Z SOUTH 
  OF<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; MENINDEE/CONDOBLIN AND NORTHEAST 
  LINE WALGET/NARRABRI.SOME RAIN<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  DEVELOPING IN FAR SOUTHWEST AT FIRST,SLOWLY EXTENDING 
  EAST.<U>POSSIBLE<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DOWNDRAFTS</U> LINKED 
  TO TS.<BR>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </DIV>
  <DIV>Maybe they don't consider downdrafts to be severe....I don't know. 
  Thoughts?</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Paul.</DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P><FONT color=#3366ff face="Comic Sans MS">Paul Yole<BR>Aswa Victoria<BR>0418 
  369 256 <BR>pyole at australia.edu<BR></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

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From: "Godsman, Andrew AG" <Godsman.Andrew.AG at bhp.com>
To: "'aussie-weather at world.std.com'" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Cumulonimbus tops HOW HIGH!.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:47:26 +1100
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Clive and list,
To help me, and I'm sure others of similar experience in weather observations. Do you guys have a simple method for estimating cloud top hieght, other than experience and estimation? I would be interested to hear something as all I usually use is the approx height of the Illawarra escarpment and stack multiples of these. Not very accurate I am very sure.
Regards
Andrew Godsman



EOM 

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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From: "David Croan" <wxbustchase at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Anyone's thoughts on this........
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 13:02:28 EST
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<x-flowed>

Hi Paul and all,

Paul wrote <pyole at australia.edu>
<snip>
>OVERVIEW:
>        ISOLATED SHOWERS/THUNDERSTORMS DEVELOPING AFTER 02Z SOUTH OF
>        MENINDEE/CONDOBLIN AND NORTHEAST LINE WALGET/NARRABRI.SOME RAIN
>        DEVELOPING IN FAR SOUTHWEST AT FIRST,SLOWLY EXTENDING EAST.POSSIBLE
>        DOWNDRAFTS LINKED TO TS.
>
>Maybe they don't consider downdrafts to be severe....I don't know. 
>Thoughts?


Since downdrafts are a feature of all thunderstorms I would say that a 
severe advice or warning would be issued only if they thought conditions 
were favourable for storms where downdrafts might produce damaging winds (> 
90km/h) at the surface.

On a related note, perhaps others are aware of this already - but I just 
noticed the BoM have updated their 'severe storms' facts brochure with a few 
nice new pics as well.

http://www.bom.gov.au/info/thunder/

regards,  David
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From: "clyve herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cumulonimbus tops HOW HIGH!.
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 14:07:08 +1000
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Hi Andrew
I will get back to you later I am just off to work. to start with though the
escarpment is about 700m so you can estimate low cloud hight just by
comparison to the level of the escarpment covered etc.....I will reply later
regards Clyve H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Godsman, Andrew AG <Godsman.Andrew.AG at bhp.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2000 12:47 PM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Cumulonimbus tops HOW HIGH!.


> Clive and list,
> To help me, and I'm sure others of similar experience in weather
observations. Do you guys have a simple method for estimating cloud top
hieght, other than experience and estimation? I would be interested to hear
something as all I usually use is the approx height of the Illawarra
escarpment and stack multiples of these. Not very accurate I am very sure.
> Regards
> Andrew Godsman
>
>
>
> EOM
>
> NOTICE - This message contains information intended only for the use of
the addressee named above.  It may also be confidential and/or privileged.
If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby
notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance
on it.  If you have received this message in error please notify
postmaster at bhp.com.
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 15:33:17 +1200
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: John Gaul <nzts.nz at caverock.net.nz>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Adelaide t'storm today/tonight
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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At 10:09 25/09/00 CST, you wrote:
>Well conditions here in Adelaide are looking interseting for some 
>thunderstorm development today/tonight.  The temperature is warming 
>slightly, humidity is fairly high, feels higher than 66% and some patches of 
>sun are creeping through the clouds for more heating.  The atmosphere to me 
>looks fairly unstable as well and there are some fairly variable wind 
>patterns.  A few novice indications of some weather on the way as well, lots 
>of insects flying around outside and many trying to enter inside as well.  
>The forecast suggests a thunderstorm is possible over the next 24hrs.  Well 
>I can only hope!  I presume the upper level disturbance over eastern WA 
>which is producing thunderstorm activity is also meant to lead to the 
>increased chances of storms today.  The weather notes provided by BOM aren't 
>clear on this.

I hope you do better than the very crappy thunderstorm activity we had here
in Canterbury yesterday.

John Gaul
NZTS - more than just thunder

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 00:49:48 -0400
From: "Leslie R. Lemon" <lrlemon at compuserve.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Cumulonimbus tops HOW HIGH!.
To: "INTERNET:aussie-weather at world.std.com" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
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Clyve wrote:
  
> Hi all on the list.
> Over the past few years I have often thought of how high  a CB top can
go. So I would like to open a discussion for all those interested in
finding out how high CB tops can penetrate. Although there can be a
comparison with CB tops maximum and the extent of severe condition that
might be generated, this can  at times not be the case I.E. the Sunbury
tornado developed from a supercell with tops just reaching   30.000ft,
however the Sandon tornado developed from a supercell with tops measured at
61.000ft!. The seasons of course were different with the Sunbury storm
being a cold season development and the Sandon tornado being  a warm season
storm. So lets get our reference books out and our calculators and find out
what the officially highest recorded CB top might be, I have heard  of tops
reaching in excess of 70.000ft. We can for the exercise categorise storm
tops into levels.This classification is for maximum storm tops achieved ,to
reach supercell status rotation must be established or observed witch I
belie
> ve should be for at least 50 minutes.so here we go.....

                                Stuff deleted.

First, in general cb updrafts will continue to rise until they encounter an
equilibrium level or an inversion.  If there are no other equilibrium
levels they will continue to rise until encountering the tropopause.  The
updraft will continue to gain energy until the CAPE is exhausted.  However,
if one were to use radar echo tops as a criteria for severe storm warning,
as was done here until the mid 70's, you would generate a high false alarm
ratio and a fairly good probability of detection.  But the very high false
alarm rate was what was found in a study here.  For this reason, Don
Burgess and myself in our chapter in Radar in Meteorology titled "Severe
Storm Detection by Radar" did not recommend echo tops as a criteria for
warnings.  But there is really no reason for a strong convective updraft to
stop its vertical rise unless it encounters an equilibrium level, such as
the tropopause.  Then at that point it will overshoot that level until all
the the released CAPE is negated by the CINH due to the very cold updraft
air (as compared to the environment).  This overshoot can be between 5 kft
and 10 kft.

How high are the maximum radar echo tops?  Yes, there have been echo tops
reported at 70,000 ft or higher.  But in all cases these reports are due to
a radar artefact called a "side lobe" encountered when using the RHI (Range
Height Indicator) scanning.  This is the way radar echo tops are most
accurately measured.  I will not go into detail here but will simply say
that these heights due to side lobes are 'false readings'.  About the
highest precipitation echo top I have seen that I was confident was real
was about 65,000 ft.  However, there may be cases where in the topics the
tops could exceed this by a small amount.  

The reason supercell updrafts may be stronger is more than likely because
those cbs are larger, up to 15 km across, and due to helicity, turbulence
is suppressed and thus entrainment and mixing with environmental air aloft 
is minimized.  The large updraft size and helicity both would permit the
core of the updraft to be unmixed and able to rise at "parcel" rates, or
the rates a skew-T would suggest.  I have Doppler radar observations of
updrafts that are very smooth and intense, probably rising at 60 m/s.  (See
my paper concerning "Updraft identification with Radar". on Jane's home
page.  Also see the paper Browning (1978) that Jane will post when she gets
the time.

Aside from radar, many want to use satellite measured top temperatures. 
But you can not do that because once the updraft penetrates the equilibrium
level, the updraft is much colder than the environment.  So, if the
temperatures are used and compared to the soundings, it would appear that
the tops are much higher than they really are. However, if you are able to
use stereo photography from satellite photos, then the visual tops can be
measured.  I have done that before, estimating tops of 60 to 65 kft.  RB-57
flights have been flown over the tops of tornadic and otherwise severe, and
have identified cloud tops around 67,000 ft.  Precipitation tops would be a
little lower than this.

I was not certain what your meaning was about mesocyclone rotation for 50
minutes.  It really is not necessary for a mesocyclone circulation to be
identified for 50 minutes or more for it to be significant.  In fact many
do not last that long at all.  They may live for only 10 or 15 minutes but
can still be significant in the production of severe weather.  The stronger
and longer lasting mesocyclones are more important for severe weather
production, in general, that is true.

Les
************************
Leslie R. Lemon
Radar, Severe Storms, & Research Meteorologist
Tel. 816-373-3533, 816-213-3237
E-Mail: lrlemon at compuserve.com
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From: "S G" <thunderday191 at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Sharp upper level trough moving east!
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:26:35 CST
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<x-flowed>
The upper trough I mentioned in my last e-mail that was over WA, has now 
been mentioned in the South Austrailain weather notes issued by BOM and is 
forecast to move eastward across SA during the day tomorrow(Tuesday).  I was 
wondering does anyone know how sharp this upper level trough is?  To me it 
sounds like this trough combined with the lingering surface trough could 
cause some interesting storm activity that could possibly become severe in 
SA, VIC and NSW.  Does anyone know what is the exact location of this 
trough, I am wondering if it is connected with the small patch of cloud just 
south of the Bight at the moment or the back of the trough cloud in the 
mainland?.  Adelaide's weather tomorrow morning could be interesting for 
once, (for a storm), seeing as the forecast predicts thundery showers.  I 
won't hold my breath though, the forecasts have been being changed left 
right and center for the last 5 days.
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From: "Michael Thompson" <michaelt at ozemail.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Shower chase!! & Question about forests
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 17:34:05 +1000
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Interesting question Shaun, but different circumstances for each case.

In our area wet or dry sclerophyl or that matter rainforest is not so much
determined by rainfall as soils and fire.

Any are receiving over 1200mm is usually wet enough for rainforest. In the
Nowra area ( the Braidwood road out the back of Albatross is a good
example ) wet sclerophyl ocurrs where there is decent soil depth / or in the
isolated basalt outcrops such as Sassafras. In other places the soil is
either too thin with huge sandstone slabs, or poorly drained. Both these
areas a re prone to bushfire and have plants that are fire tolerant. Fire is
what keeps rainforest away from those Basalt areas. Rainforest occurs in the
moist gullies and ravines that rarely if ever see fire. So in answer to your
question in regard to western and southern Nowra I would say NO regarding
rainfall.

The escarpment from north of Nowra too Berry and along Wollongong is a
different case. The escarpment does provide lifting and rainfall is higher,
especially on days like yesterday and today. Even here Rainforest vs Wet
Sclerophyl is determined by fire, it is a constant war between the two.
Rainforest starts to invade wet sclerophyl during wet times, and its shade
prevents the Eucalypts from germinating. Even in rainforest stands you may
find the odd gaint gum tree, these are survivors from drier periods when a
bushfire invaded the rainforest and killed the rainforest trees. This at
last allowed the Eucalypts to germinate and see sunshine, thus the cycle
repeats. It's not always like this, for example the forest gaints in
Victoria see fire that often that rainforest invasion is rarely an issue.

Michael


>      Had the same stuff down here Michael (actually, probably got it about
> an hour before you). I did notice down here that the rain (ha ha, but
there
> was some) fell only where you would call the vegetation wet sclerophyl.
> Anywhere that it was dry sclerophyl no rain seemed to fall. Did it look
like
> this around Mt.Kembla/Keira Michael? Perhaps the weather has got the s..ts
> with our explanations of its vagaries and is sticking to its guns. Will
wave
> on my way to Sydney airport tomorrow (and on the way back 2 hours later).
>                                           Waiting for
>                                                Shaun    Nowra
>
>     P:S  Sclerophyl, is this the correct way to spell it? Been way too
many
> years since high school.
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
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From: "bussie" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "weather list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Current conditions
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:58:07 +1000
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Light rain still falling here as it has since about 2.30 this morning. 4.5
mm for the day and still 16 degrees here at home, after a top of 18.

Bussy (NE Victoria)

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From: "bussie" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "weather list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: My theory
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:43:38 +1000
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Buggered up my theory Clive. I thought that most storm clouds went to anvil
stage at 30,000 feet (troposphere is it) even though some, the more severe
bust through the top. Back to the books......

Bussy (NE Victoria)

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From: "bussie" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Rain in October
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:32:27 +1000
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> its most likely originated from the potential frog analysis method, i.e.
> frogs not croaking -no rain next month, if frogs croak once over a minute
> period then that's one rainday for next month, so if frogs are croaking 10
> croaks per minute then that's 10 raindays next month....see... its easy so
> in this case the frog croak count has been 19 so in October you will have
19
> raindays........however the catch is you have to count the croaks of the
> lesser crossed eyed blue frog which are very rare in Victoria!,

Same as the red-bellied blck snake is a lot redder in the summer (after
being hit with a shovel)

 on the other
> hand if one day you see thousands of frogs jumping madly to the south
> heading for the hills follow them cause there's going to be a huge
> flood!!!!!. regards Clyve H.

Or I could get the local pool to re-open the two lanes of the pool that were
closed during the dry of last summer........

Eg. It was so dry here last year that my rocking horse died and the cows
were giving condensed milk. <g>

Bussy (NE Victoria)

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From: "bussie" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: SE QLD T'Storm Report
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:24:40 +1000
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Well all I can say is that I hope that none of you people leave as I've
learnt so much in a short while and the input and help from all of you is
great. I certainly appreciate what you have to say and what others say,
otherwise I wouldn't still be here. I'm a learner and pick up heaps from
what most of you write. Must admit though that I have a long way to go as
there's still a bit I can't understand, but I'm getting there! Keep up the
good work is all I can say. And I'll say it now, thanks all.

Bussy (The "L" plater)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Cornelius" <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: SE QLD T'Storm Report


> Hi Jane and John,
>
> Jane - here is living proof why I often downplay things, as to avoid
> these sort of cynic comments.  I get these personally too - yet if I do
> downplay them, I cop it the other way too...for some reason, I seem to
> be the only person to get this?  Perhaps time for me to look elsewhere
> for another list (Clyve, you said you were looking elsewhere too, did
> you find something?)...it would appear people don't appreciate/don't
> like what I have to say.  I'd like to be able to post things without
> these sorts of comments.  I'm allowed to get excited over what I like -
> right?
>
> Oh well - on another note, it was a great BBQ yesterday in NE NSW - with
> some (dare I say?) welcome and nice thunderstorms to the west and
> southwest.  While the anvils were fibrous, there were a few nice
> updrafts, and a nice anvil filled sunset in the afternoon.
>
> Regards,
>
> Anthony Cornelius
>
> John Woodbridge wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jane,
> >
> > I think the photo's up close look much better than it did from a
distance.
> > I watched the cell develop from Sumner and decided that it wasn't even
worth
> > a photo let alone a chase, as it was obviously small, weak and fairly
> > uninteresting (this was the Anvil email I sent on Friday).  I am
surprised
> > that thunder was apparently heard.  I also rather doubt that the top was
> > anywhere near 30,000'.
> >
> > John.
> > >snip
> >
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: SE QLD T'Storm Report
> >
> > Breathtaking photos.......I'd get no work done if all of our days had
skies
> > that looked like that!!!!!
> >
> > <ahem> - what's this bit about ....... "While they were weak, and small
> > (reaching 30,000ft tops), they were still better then nothing! " ?????
Do
> > you
> > know what effect 30,000' tops have on Victorian chasers??????? ask Macca
for
> > his two-word description (the one that usually gets edited out)
> >
> > Keep the storms coming!!!
> >
> > Jane
> >
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: tlang at freeway.apana.org.au (Tony Langdon)
Date: 24 Sep 00 23:00:07 +1000
Subject: Re: aus-wx: New Question: Re: AM radio static 
Organization: Fidonet: Freeway Usenet <=> FTN gateway 
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Hello Les!

24 Sep 00 11:27, you wrote to All:

 L> VLF (30 kHz and below) is quite capable of penetrating the earth and
 L> sea, cavers use it as do American submarines. Most lightning sferics
 L> are in the VLF region and produce various bizzare phenomenon.

But the AM radios aren't sensitive to the VLF region.  It would take some
secondary effects (e.g. rectification) for these to manifest themselves at the
higher (broadcast) frequencies.

Tony, VK3JED
--
|Fidonet:  Tony Langdon 3:633/284.18
|Internet: tlang at freeway.apana.org.au
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "Les" <les.crossan at virgin.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: New Question: Re: AM radio static 
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 10:25:39 +0100
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Langdon" <tlang at freeway.apana.org.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2000 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: New Question: Re: AM radio static


>
> Hello Les!
>
> 24 Sep 00 11:27, you wrote to All:
>
>  L> VLF (30 kHz and below) is quite capable of penetrating the earth and
>  L> sea, cavers use it as do American submarines.

Indeed - I've never tried using my Lowe HF150 (20KHz - 30MHz) in a tunnel
but the UK's Radio 4 (198KHz) penterates quite far into the Tyne Tunnel,
further than VHF.... if you wanted to do any VLF (or SHF / cosmic rays /
neutrinos) for that matter) experiments, listening for whistlers etc then
underground would be the place to do it due to no RFI getting through.....
medium wave 500khz - 1600khz gets no distance underground at all....

Les (UK)

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
X-Originating-IP: [198.142.93.49]
From: "Shaun Whelan" <wheelsthepusser at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Shower chase!! & Question about forests
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 20:33:47 EST
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<x-flowed>
     Thanks Michael, my obs on the rain falling only on wet scler. forest 
yesterday went out the window today as it rained on everything.  I told my 
mate from Perth who I picked up today that he should have been here last 
week.....
                                           Slightly damp
                                                  Shaun     Nowra

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</x-flowed>
From: tlang at freeway.apana.org.au (Tony Langdon)
Date: 25 Sep 00 20:41:11 +1000
Subject: Re: aus-wx: RE: New Question: Re: AM radio static 
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Hello Avo!

24 Sep 00 15:00, you wrote to All:

 AO> AM radios use an automatic gain control system which will
 AO> electronically control the gain of the RF amp (used to amplify the
 AO> incoming signal). If HK does have a repeater system, then the radio
 AO> signal will be quite strong throughout the tunnel and thus the AGC
 AO> will turn down the gain effectively deafening the radio to the point
 AO> of only picking up the strongest signal (ie the AM signal from the
 AO> leaky coax). This is one possibility.

Not only that, but the noise wouldn't penetrate well.

 AO> If both tunnels have a repeater system, it may be that HK (like
 AO> Sydney Harbour tunnel) gets a direct feed from the source whereas the
 AO> New Territories tunnel may repeat the broadcast signal thus also
 AO> repeating any spurious and static noise.

This seems the most feasible scenario I've heard

 AO> Hope this "clears the air" on the static thingy...... :-) (I know,
 AO> but I am in a weird mood and besides I am at work on a Sunday....)

:)

In any case, we've finally got a reasonable amount of that water that falls
from the sky!  Rained all day in Melbourne. :)

Nothing more interesting, though there's a chance of a storm tomorrow,
according to the forecast.

Tony, VK3JED

.. There cannot be a crisis today; my schedule is already full.
--
|Fidonet:  Tony Langdon 3:633/284.18
|Internet: tlang at freeway.apana.org.au
|
| Standard disclaimer: The views of this user are strictly his own.


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
From: "Patrick Tobin" <patricktobin at ozemail.com.au>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Thunder in Canberra
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 21:31:48 +1000
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Hi all,

At 10.10pm DST, just heard a long rumble of thunder. A nice rumble that had
the house and windows shake for nearly 10 seconds. A bit unexpected really -
showers, drizzle here most of the day with a max of 11C.

Lightning strikes around 1 per minute and increasing in frequency as I
type...

Our third storm this year and the first since the storm we had on the winter
solstice.

Hopefully some more storms to come over the next couple of days,

Patrick

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
X-Originating-IP: [203.171.105.233]
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Condensation funnels et al...
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:57:43 EST
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<x-flowed>
Hi every1,

Thanks to every1 who replied but as usual I discovered a major truth 
straight after writing my email...put the Descartes before the horse - "I am 
therefore I think" :)))

As was rightly pointed out...the condensation funnel apparently occurs 
because of a pressure drop...not vice-versa....oh well...we live and we 
learn...

Just one question left: Do all tornadoes have condensation funnels?

Cheers,
Kevin from Wycheproof.
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</x-flowed>