Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 00:04:23 +1000 From: Anthony Cornelius X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fairy Dell Tornado F rating (was mini tornadoes) Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi John and all, I agree with the logic of which you base the F-rating on, but I guess there's a loop-hole with the F-rating. The thing that caught my eye, was that the house had been recently renovated - now, does this mean it had an extension put on the house? If so, was the extension the part of the house that was badly damaged? The main reason why I point this out, is because of the Cedar Pocket tornado in November last year, when ben and I went to survey the damage, one could argue F3 status too: http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/08-11-99%20House2.jpg However, the interesting part is, that the section of the house destroyed was the extension, yet the original house is nearly in-tact (except for the roofing). I thought of it as a little too much of a coincidence that there's such a distinct line in the damage. While I admit, it is possible that perhaps a multivortex tornado could have caused the discrepency of damage, there were still trees standing in the area where the tornado had hit (although many of them snapped off). I had seen F3 damage to trees, and it looks like some one went through with a bulldozer! The damage done to the trees can be seen here: http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/08-11-99%20Tree%20Clearing.jpg You can clearly see where the tornado has gone through, but the damage is really only superficial. Another house also hit by the tornado also exhibited classic F1 damage. While not an expert, I wrote up a damage report for the BoM in case they wanted it for reference. I concluded that I felt it was an F1 tornado, given the possible structual weaknesses. I got the impression that Jeff agreed on the whole, and I think it was filed away...but I'm not sure if the BoM will use that as their "official" rating or not. I thought that the tornado was a high F1-low F2 (Fairy Dell), but when I heard about the renovations, leant more towards F1. I guess you really need to have a look at the damage first-hand to try and avoid any discrepencies. Just my 2c :) Anthony Cornelius John Woodbridge wrote: > > Hi Jane, > > According to my Tornado video series, the F rating of a Tornado is > based upon the single most severe damage observed along the path. > > So for example, if only 1 well constructed house is completely > destroyed (F4) then the entire path is rated F4. On this basis > the rating for the Fairy Dell tornado is probably F3 given the > damage to the Merret house which included walls destroyed (as > reported in the media). > > Regards, > John. > >snip > > 3) If the Fairy Dell tornado is considered to be possibly a high F1 - > low F2 tornado...is that a small tornado???????????? > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ -- Anthony Cornelius Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA) (07) 3390 4812 14 Kinsella St Belmont, Brisbane QLD, 4153 Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at http://www.severeweather.asn.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: johnstone at psyphw.psych.wisc.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 15:52:41 -0500 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: "Iain T. Johnstone" Subject: Re: aus-wx: mini tornadoes Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Okay - I am no weather expert, but that won't stop me from putting in my 5c worth :-) I think that Don's right in saying that the biggest problem with the term "mini-tornado" is the way it is used to describe virtually any wind event. I also agree that using it to describe a small tornado might be reasonable. However, there is a problem with even that usage - what constitutes "mini"? It seems to me that "mini" usually means "smaller than the real thing" or "smaller than normal", neither of which is really the case here. And how could one hope to establish a criterion for the use of the word "mini"? Would it be based on estimated wind strength? That wouldn't really make sense, since mini really refers to small size. So would any small-sized tornado be a mini-tornado - in which case a small but very powerful tornado would be called a mini tornado? It seems to me that the term "mini-tornado" is actually wrongly used by people who are under the impression that it wasn't a real tornado. People who are under this false impression should be corrected. People who know better should surely use the phrase "weak tornado" to describe a weak tornado! And then, once a proper estimate had been made of the tornado strength, we could talk of an F0/F1 tornado. After all, has anyone ever heard people talking of "mini-thunderstorms", "mini-cyclones" or "mini-earthquakes"? As I said, just my 5c. Tom Johnstone At 05:14 AM 6/25/00 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Don, Jimmy and all > >I have to say I fully agree with you, Don, and was considering writing an >email to the list of similar content yesterday afternoon but decided against >it for fear that I may get my head blown off! This is mainly due to the >reaction I have received from some people whenever I raise the topic of why >the term "mini-tornado" is so hated amongst people on this list. > >I understand the reasoning of most of the people that I have spoken to that >they have a problem with the usage of the term for any strong wind event >that occurs in Australia, tornadic or otherwise. I fully agree on this >point, but I do not feel that is a problem with the term "mini-tornado" >itself. The prefix "mini-" simply means small (although I am led to believe >some would disagree), so therefore, surely a "mini-tornado" is just a small >tornado. Now, whether this particular event was small or not is a matter of >debate and I suppose the idea of small will always be a relative one. >However, the point remains, the term "mini-tornado" is not at fault there if >it wasn't, it would be the usage of it. > >The main problem I have with the term mini-tornado is that the media seems >to like using it to describe any form of strong winds, straight line or >tornadic, and I believe this is where you run into problems. If the public >associates any strong winds as a mini-tornado, and then when a "real" >mini-tornado does hit, how are they going to ever know that this one was >actually a tornado at all? Therefore, I believe the way to go in this >particular debate is not to ban the usage of the term "mini-tornado" >altogether as some people on this list seem to want to make it their life's >mission to do! Rather, campaign the media to reserve the term for events >which have been confirmed as being tornadic. If, in the heat of the moment, >right after the event, it is still exactly unsure whether it was a tornado >or not, call it a "windstorm" or something until it is confirmed. THEN make >it public when it is confirmed as a tornado, so that the public can be >educated that Australia DOES actually get tornadoes. > >Second to all this is my dislike of the prefix "freak". I would much rather >ban the term "freak tornado" because why are they freak?! They occur, quite >often in Australia etc etc, but then again, that is another story... > >I hope I have not offended anyone in my statements here, but as I had been >planning on raising this topic myself in this forum, now seemed as good a >time as any :) > >May the discussion begin... > >Matthew Pearce >____________________ >The Weather Company >Level 2, 7 West Street >North Sydney 2060 >Phone: (02) 9955 7704 >Fax: (02) 9955 1536 >twc at theweather.com.au >----- Original Message ----- >From: Don White >To: Aussie Weather >Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 5:50 AM >Subject: aus-wx: mini tornadoes > > > > We have to be careful not to get too carried away by the media use of > > "mini-tornado." > > Being aware that many straight but severe down draughts are often in > > correctly tagged as such, a mini tornado is - after all a small tornado. > > As far as I can ascertain from the media reports that what happened in > > Fairy Dell last Thursday, it was a small - by most standards - tornado > > so maybe a mini tornado is a correct title on this occasion but hardly a > > sufficient difference to get worked up about. > > > > Don White > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > > message. > > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: carls at ford.ace-net.com.au Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 03:55:47 +1000 To: Aussie Weather List , Phil Smith From: Carl Smith Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: "mini-tornado" and "Willy-willies" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi All. I thought I would forward this email from my brother Phil in Hong Kong regarding the tornado posts - I have forwarded several of them to him. Regards, Carl. >From: "Phil Smith" >To: "Carl Smith" >Subject: "mini-tornado" and "Willy-willies" >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:35:14 +0800 >Organization: Doctor Disk > >The arguments about "mini-tornado" are very interesting. >When I was a kid in the 50's tornadoes were almost universally known as >"willy-willies" the only trouble with that being that some less-informed >people referred to Dust Devils as "Willy-willies". Our grandpa however, >always used the term "tornado". >Tornadoes have always been common in Australia, but in the days of early >settlement, the settlers always asked the aboriginal people to advise where >a town or farm could be built so that the tornadoes would miss it. We >always understood this to be the reason that so few people were killed by >them in Oz compared to the US. >A tornado that clears a few trees and pinches a few dozen hay bales does not >make for tremendously exciting reading for the average bloke, so the >majority that occurred in Oz were never reported on any further than the >local pub. >There used to be an old aboriginal bloke out at Framlingham (South West >Victoria) when I was a kid that used to be brought out whenever anyone was >subdividing a property to advise the surveyors on safe places to build the >new houses. He made a few bob out of it and probably some thought he was a >con artist, but he was always called out when needed back around the start >of the fifties. I wish I could remember his name and a few more details. >It would make a good book/film. > >Phil ><>< > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:32:04 +1000 From: Don White X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Re: aus-wx: mini tornadoes Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com I agree Tom (or Iain). I believe the biggest problem in using mini or any other subjective term is that it is just that - subjective - and in a scientific area we need to be specific. But we also have to be realistic when commented on media usage. Can you imagine the media report saying "An f-1 tornado hit...." or anything like that. Even just using the word tornado would have bee less descriptive to their readers. Organisations like ASWA can educate the media in correct usage but they (the media) are always going to want to use subjective terms. I believe that contact - criticism of usage in the media should be by the way of the relase of "official statements / media relaeases" by ASWA after the approriate consultation between memebers etc. Individuals going off about pedantics can do more harm than good. Although I accept the use of mini in regards to what happened in northern Victoria last week is far from ideal on a scientific basis, given the current state of community education and weather knowledge, I think it was perfectly justifiable in this case. Another 5c worth. We'll soon have enough money to education all journalists at this rate Cheers, Don White "Iain T. Johnstone" wrote: > > Okay - I am no weather expert, but that won't stop me from putting in my 5c > worth :-) > > I think that Don's right in saying that the biggest problem with the term > "mini-tornado" is the way it is used to describe virtually any wind event. > I also agree that using it to describe a small tornado might be reasonable. > However, there is a problem with even that usage - what constitutes "mini"? > It seems to me that "mini" usually means "smaller than the real thing" or > "smaller than normal", neither of which is really the case here. And how > could one hope to establish a criterion for the use of the word "mini"? > Would it be based on estimated wind strength? That wouldn't really make > sense, since mini really refers to small size. So would any small-sized > tornado be a mini-tornado - in which case a small but very powerful tornado > would be called a mini tornado? > > It seems to me that the term "mini-tornado" is actually wrongly used by > people who are under the impression that it wasn't a real tornado. People > who are under this false impression should be corrected. People who know > better should surely use the phrase "weak tornado" to describe a weak > tornado! And then, once a proper estimate had been made of the tornado > strength, we could talk of an F0/F1 tornado. After all, has anyone ever > heard people talking of "mini-thunderstorms", "mini-cyclones" or > "mini-earthquakes"? > > As I said, just my 5c. > > Tom Johnstone > > At 05:14 AM 6/25/00 +1000, you wrote: > >Hi Don, Jimmy and all > > > >I have to say I fully agree with you, Don, and was considering writing an > >email to the list of similar content yesterday afternoon but decided against > >it for fear that I may get my head blown off! This is mainly due to the > >reaction I have received from some people whenever I raise the topic of why > >the term "mini-tornado" is so hated amongst people on this list. > > > >I understand the reasoning of most of the people that I have spoken to that > >they have a problem with the usage of the term for any strong wind event > >that occurs in Australia, tornadic or otherwise. I fully agree on this > >point, but I do not feel that is a problem with the term "mini-tornado" > >itself. The prefix "mini-" simply means small (although I am led to believe > >some would disagree), so therefore, surely a "mini-tornado" is just a small > >tornado. Now, whether this particular event was small or not is a matter of > >debate and I suppose the idea of small will always be a relative one. > >However, the point remains, the term "mini-tornado" is not at fault there if > >it wasn't, it would be the usage of it. > > > >The main problem I have with the term mini-tornado is that the media seems > >to like using it to describe any form of strong winds, straight line or > >tornadic, and I believe this is where you run into problems. If the public > >associates any strong winds as a mini-tornado, and then when a "real" > >mini-tornado does hit, how are they going to ever know that this one was > >actually a tornado at all? Therefore, I believe the way to go in this > >particular debate is not to ban the usage of the term "mini-tornado" > >altogether as some people on this list seem to want to make it their life's > >mission to do! Rather, campaign the media to reserve the term for events > >which have been confirmed as being tornadic. If, in the heat of the moment, > >right after the event, it is still exactly unsure whether it was a tornado > >or not, call it a "windstorm" or something until it is confirmed. THEN make > >it public when it is confirmed as a tornado, so that the public can be > >educated that Australia DOES actually get tornadoes. > > > >Second to all this is my dislike of the prefix "freak". I would much rather > >ban the term "freak tornado" because why are they freak?! They occur, quite > >often in Australia etc etc, but then again, that is another story... > > > >I hope I have not offended anyone in my statements here, but as I had been > >planning on raising this topic myself in this forum, now seemed as good a > >time as any :) > > > >May the discussion begin... > > > >Matthew Pearce > >____________________ > >The Weather Company > >Level 2, 7 West Street > >North Sydney 2060 > >Phone: (02) 9955 7704 > >Fax: (02) 9955 1536 > >twc at theweather.com.au > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Don White > >To: Aussie Weather > >Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2000 5:50 AM > >Subject: aus-wx: mini tornadoes > > > > > > > We have to be careful not to get too carried away by the media use of > > > "mini-tornado." > > > Being aware that many straight but severe down draughts are often in > > > correctly tagged as such, a mini tornado is - after all a small tornado. > > > As far as I can ascertain from the media reports that what happened in > > > Fairy Dell last Thursday, it was a small - by most standards - tornado > > > so maybe a mini tornado is a correct title on this occasion but hardly a > > > sufficient difference to get worked up about. > > > > > > Don White > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > > > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > > > message. > > > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > > message. > > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 07:36:54 -0700 From: Lindsay X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Re: aus-wx: Another cold outbreak for the SE next Thursday? Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com And Monday's four day forecast for the Central Tablelands is now for showers and rain periods tending to widespread snow for Thursday! Lindsay Laurier Williams wrote: > > I think the main difference is an absence of persistent high pressure > well south of normal -- the progs are moving this cold outbreak > through pretty quickly, with sub-540 thicknesses only lasting 24 hours > over the mainland at most. > > Laurier > > On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:47:43 +1000, MSC - Jane ONeill > wrote: > > > > >Paul Graham wrote: > >> > >> I'm wondering whether we might see another severe weather outbreak similar > >> to last Wednesday as the first front moves through? > >> - Paul G. > >> > > > >Paul, > > > >My inexpert opinion.... > >The set up for this situation seems completely different to that of last > >week at the moment. Admittedly, there is a wave low forming just off > >the south coast of WA in the western Bight, but the east-west > >temperature gradient at 850hPa is nowhere near as dramatic as was last > >week's this far out. > > > >The 300Hpa also shows a jet with a lot less punch coming in from the > >Indian Ocean. The sub-tropical infeed does mean that there will be > >plenty of moisture available - so I'm leaning more towards a rain event > >associated with a complex area of low pressure over the Tasmania, > >Victoria & southern NSW region - and the more I look, the more I think > >that this is starting to look like a north-west rainband. > > > >Jane > > > >-------------------------------- > >Jane ONeill > >cadence at rubix.net.au > > > >Melbourne Storm Chasers > >http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence > >soon to be > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com > > > >ASWA - Victoria > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au > > > >-------------------------------- > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > > message. > > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: mini tornadoes To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:12:14 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > We have to be careful not to get too carried away by the media use of > "mini-tornado." > Being aware that many straight but severe down draughts are often in > correctly tagged as such, a mini tornado is - after all a small tornado. > As far as I can ascertain from the media reports that what happened in > Fairy Dell last Thursday, it was a small - by most standards - tornado > so maybe a mini tornado is a correct title on this occasion but hardly a Actually, far more aggravating (to me at least) than the use of the dreaded M-T word was what A Current Affair used to illustrate their story on Friday night - the 'flying cow' scene out of 'Twister'! It's not as if there's a shortage of footage of real tornadoes to use for such purposes (or maybe 7 and 10 have all the rights to them for their shows?). Blair Trewin> message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "John Woodbridge" To: Subject: RE: aus-wx: Fairy Dell Tornado F rating (was mini tornadoes) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 10:27:07 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Anthony, Well yes there are many problems with the F scale rating system. Not the least is how do you define "well constructed". I think the objective of only rating the most severe damage is to cater for the fact that the intensity of a tornado typically does vary considerably along the path, perhaps either due to temporary lifting, or simple variations in diameter or dynamic. So by definition, you can't really look at other lesser damage and say that it was probably a lesser scale event. It is not valid to say that some trees were intact nearby therefore it was probably only F1. In fact on video documentaries of F4 US tornadoes some trees in the path survived with relatively minor damage whereas others were snapped off or totally mangled. I think this just highlights the problems with the F scale rating and I am not convinced that the T scale is much better. I think Fujita's view was that the best estimate of a Tornadoes strength was the worst damage caused. Tricky of course if it goes through an open wheat field. All such tornadoes are F0 by definition. So the F rating is in fact just a damage rating not a strength rating (hence some folks preference for the T scale). But to get to a strength rating you need wind speed and without visible damage that is rather difficult to derive... These days I guess we all tend to think of F rating as a strength rating anyway (perhaps incorrectly). In Oz we have generally tougher building regulations than in the US (so I am told), thus you would hope that the Merret dwelling met the "well constructed" requirement. If not, then it could not have met Oz standards and they would have a valid claim against their builder. Re Fairy Dell, I must admit to have been slightly swayed by the eye witness account of entire trees rotating around the top of the funnel - what an awesome sight... (although I suspect that the 'top of the funnel' meant top of debris cloud and not parent cloud base. End of ramble. John. >snip Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fairy Dell Tornado F rating (was mini tornadoes) Hi John and all, I agree with the logic of which you base the F-rating on, but I guess there's a loop-hole with the F-rating. The thing that caught my eye, was that the house had been recently renovated - now, does this mean it had an extension put on the house? If so, was the extension the part of the house that was badly damaged? The main reason why I point this out, is because of the Cedar Pocket tornado in November last year, when ben and I went to survey the damage, one could argue F3 status too: http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/08-11-99%20House2.jpg However, the interesting part is, that the section of the house destroyed was the extension, yet the original house is nearly in-tact (except for the roofing). I thought of it as a little too much of a coincidence that there's such a distinct line in the damage. While I admit, it is possible that perhaps a multivortex tornado could have caused the discrepency of damage, there were still trees standing in the area where the tornado had hit (although many of them snapped off). I had seen F3 damage to trees, and it looks like some one went through with a bulldozer! The damage done to the trees can be seen here: http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/08-11-99%20Tree%20Clearing.jpg You can clearly see where the tornado has gone through, but the damage is really only superficial. Another house also hit by the tornado also exhibited classic F1 damage. While not an expert, I wrote up a damage report for the BoM in case they wanted it for reference. I concluded that I felt it was an F1 tornado, given the possible structual weaknesses. I got the impression that Jeff agreed on the whole, and I think it was filed away...but I'm not sure if the BoM will use that as their "official" rating or not. I thought that the tornado was a high F1-low F2 (Fairy Dell), but when I heard about the renovations, leant more towards F1. I guess you really need to have a look at the damage first-hand to try and avoid any discrepencies. Just my 2c :) Anthony Cornelius +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Godsman, Andrew AG" To: "'aussie-weather at world.std.com'" Subject: RE: aus-wx: Another cold outbreak for the SE next Thursday? Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 08:08:24 +1000 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com All I'll say at the moment is that us long suffering Wollongong-ites will hopefully see some action with the best prognosis of an east coast low. It's been a while, and one can only hope. Time to buy some film for the camera. Andrew Godsman > ---------- > From: wbc at ozemail.com.au[SMTP:wbc at ozemail.com.au] > Reply To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > Sent: Sunday, 25 June 2000 10:29 > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Another cold outbreak for the SE next Thursday? > > I think the main difference is an absence of persistent high pressure > well south of normal -- the progs are moving this cold outbreak > through pretty quickly, with sub-540 thicknesses only lasting 24 hours > over the mainland at most. > > Laurier > > > On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 20:47:43 +1000, MSC - Jane ONeill > wrote: > > > > >Paul Graham wrote: > >> > >> I'm wondering whether we might see another severe weather outbreak similar > >> to last Wednesday as the first front moves through? > >> - Paul G. > >> > > > >Paul, > > > >My inexpert opinion.... > >The set up for this situation seems completely different to that of last > >week at the moment. Admittedly, there is a wave low forming just off > >the south coast of WA in the western Bight, but the east-west > >temperature gradient at 850hPa is nowhere near as dramatic as was last > >week's this far out. > > > >The 300Hpa also shows a jet with a lot less punch coming in from the > >Indian Ocean. The sub-tropical infeed does mean that there will be > >plenty of moisture available - so I'm leaning more towards a rain event > >associated with a complex area of low pressure over the Tasmania, > >Victoria & southern NSW region - and the more I look, the more I think > >that this is starting to look like a north-west rainband. > > > >Jane > > > >-------------------------------- > >Jane ONeill > >cadence at rubix.net.au > > > >Melbourne Storm Chasers > >http://www.rubix.net.au/~cadence > >soon to be > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com > > > >ASWA - Victoria > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au > > > >-------------------------------- > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > > message. > > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > EOM NOTICE - This message contains information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. It may also be confidential and/or privileged. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify postmaster at bhp.com. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Authentication-Warning: neumann.maths.monash.edu.au: robert owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:48:08 +1000 (EST) From: Robert Goler X-Sender: robert at neumann.maths.monash.edu.au To: "'aussie-weather at world.std.com'" Subject: aus-wx: Are you out there Michael Fewings? Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi all Does anyone know whether Michael Fewings is in email contact at the moment? I sent him an email to mike at strikeone.com.au over a week ago and I'm desperate for a reply. Cheers -- Robert A. Goler E-mail robert at mail.maths.monash.edu.au http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/ Department of Mathematics and Statistics Monash University Clayton, Vic 3800 Australia -- +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 14:58:36 +1000 From: Anthony Cornelius X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Re: aus-wx: mini tornadoes Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Don, Dr Pearce etc... If a the headlines of the New York Times had on the front page "Australia's Largest City Destroyed by Nuclear Blast" - the thought that will go through everyone's minds will be that Sydney just copped a nuke. Is this correct? No. Mt Isa is also Australia's largest city - land wise! Although Sydney is Australia's largest city population wise. But they're technically correct. As they are technically correct in calling a small tornado a "mini-tornado." But it's not quite correct realistically, it's ambiguous and relies on the viewers own perception. So why not put "Mt Isa Destroyed by Nuclear Blast," well - two reasons I can think of: - Where the hell is Mt Isa? - It sounds more dramatic Why not put "F-2 tornado strikes town" instead of "mini-tornado strikes town" - two reasons I can think of: - What the hell is a F-2 tornado? - It sounds more dramatic, as it relies on the viewers perception and imagination as to what a mini-tornado is. But if 90% of the population didn't know what the word ambidextrous meant, then would that mean we should stop using it too? I think people get the drift of what I'm saying here. As Jane mentioned, it's subjective and can lead to a lot of different ideas. The media's purpose is to inform, and to teach - so why not teach the truth, rather then give subjective opinions. If the media were to inform, and report realistically, then eventually the F-scale would become general knowledge (as is the general knowledge of Cat 1-5 TC's). Also, why give subjective words, when there are already descriptive terms available and assigned for different F-scale ratings. Eg: F0/F1 = Weak F2/F3 = Strong F4/F5 = Violent All of these are already given to us with the F-Scale and are widely accepted. The terms are subjective still, but to those in the know, it would make sense. And we'd hope that eventually, those in the know, will become common knowledge. Much less subjective then a "mini-tornado" which is a term used far too loosely. Sure, if a tornado is small (as in minature), then call it a mini-tornado! But not EVERY tornado is mini!!! And not most of them either! On the grand scheme of things, most tornadoes are small in size, weak in strength and short in length. So these so-called "mini-tornadoes" really should be "average-tornadoes." My idea of a "mini-tornado" is something that is a few metres wide, and lasts for a few seconds! And then of course, the terms "mini-tornadoes" and "mini-cyclones" are generally used for any storm with severe/damaging winds - which includes tornadoes, gust fronts, straight-line winds (microbursts etc) - and many people believe that mini-tornadoes and mini-cyclones are just metaphors for a bad storm, and not a tornado! I personally believe what Matt did was good, as it corrected the article, as IMO this tornado was far from "mini." What I would like to see ASWA do in the near future (note, these are not ASWA's official views, these are my personal views) is have media-watchers in each state. Each media-watcher(s) would be someone who readily listens to the news, reads the paper etc. Each time the media uses incorrect terminology in their state, they would then contact the people involved in the form of a written ASWA letterhead, and outline the incorrect usage, and suggest the appropriate usage of the term. It was something I was going to suggest at this Saturday's QLD ASWA meeting. Just my thoughts :) Anthony Cornelius Don White wrote: > > We have to be careful not to get too carried away by the media use of > "mini-tornado." > Being aware that many straight but severe down draughts are often in > correctly tagged as such, a mini tornado is - after all a small tornado. > As far as I can ascertain from the media reports that what happened in > Fairy Dell last Thursday, it was a small - by most standards - tornado > so maybe a mini tornado is a correct title on this occasion but hardly a > sufficient difference to get worked up about. > > Don White > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ -- Anthony Cornelius Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA) (07) 3390 4812 14 Kinsella St Belmont, Brisbane QLD, 4153 Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at http://www.severeweather.asn.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Originating-IP: [203.109.250.95] From: "Paul Graham" To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: aus-wx: Fair Dell Tornado Video Footage? Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 22:43:52 PDT Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Just wondering if anyone can confirm that the amateur video footage shown as part of the news reports of the Fairy Dell tornado was in fact of the tornado itself or if it was some other tornado? - Paul G. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 17:59:16 +1000 From: Matthew Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: aus-wx: Re: mini tornadoes Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > Individuals > going off about pedantics can do more harm than good. Is this somehow directed at me ? If so I am NOT very happy. If not, then dont worry. My keyboard was playing up so I have been off the net since I posted my last email, and I cant believe the thread I have created !!! Back onto the original topic, I emailed the ABC after reading media articles about the size of the tornado from a witness that saw it. He described it as the size of 2 basketball courts in circumferance, and looking at the damage caused to the house and what not it obviously wasnt a "mini" ( tiny, place something to describe something small here") tornado, hence why I emailed the ABC. My opinion is that it was a Tornado! not small, not large, but just simply a Tornado! This has nothing whatsoever to do with ASWA, it was a personal decision and I was happy with the outcome!!! They did remove the word mini tornado from there article and put a link to 2 good Australian weather webpages after the article. If anyone has something to say to me about emailing the ABC please tell me via personal email address : tornado at bigpond.net.au , not mini-tornado at bigpond.net.au :) I am not going to give my opinion on the mini tornado debate, as many already have and im sure the 200 odd people on this list dont want someone else's thoughts on it. Thanks, im sure I will see lots of NSW people at the AMOS meeting on wednesday night. Im a little tired, off to work I go... *yawn* Matt Smith http://www.sydneystormchasers.com ASWA http://www.severeweather.asn.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: astroman at mail.chariot.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:07:45 +0930 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Andrew Wall Subject: aus-wx: Squall line goes through Ceduna Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi ppls, At about 5:30pm this afternoon a squall line as indicated on radar, went through the little township of Ceduna in SA. Ceduna it'self only measured approx 3.2mm of rain from this event. As for the rest of the Adelaide area, there is a risk of Thunderstorms tonight with the cold front, but these may come through early in the morning. We only wait and see what will happen. We may also get a few drops of rain :) Andrew +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Michael Thompson" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: mini tornadoes Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:46:49 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com I hate to digress, but my main beef is that the same event Oklahoma would not attract the mini word at all. Regards Michael\ ----- Original Message ----- From: Don White To: Aussie Weather Sent: Sunday, 25 June 2000 5:50 Subject: aus-wx: mini tornadoes > We have to be careful not to get too carried away by the media use of > "mini-tornado." > Being aware that many straight but severe down draughts are often in > correctly tagged as such, a mini tornado is - after all a small tornado. > As far as I can ascertain from the media reports that what happened in > Fairy Dell last Thursday, it was a small - by most standards - tornado > so maybe a mini tornado is a correct title on this occasion but hardly a > sufficient difference to get worked up about. > > Don White > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Michael Thompson" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: mini tornadoes Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:59:10 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Matt Don't get to worried, if it makes you feel any better I E Mailed the ABC last Friday too, before I even read your E Mail of similar action. So that's two of us who feel the same. In my E Mail it took pains to stress that the opinion was that of me as a individual not AWSA. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Matthew Smith To: Sent: Monday, 26 June 2000 17:59 Subject: aus-wx: Re: mini tornadoes > > > > Individuals > > going off about pedantics can do more harm than good. > > Is this somehow directed at me ? If so I am NOT very happy. If not, then dont worry. > My keyboard was playing up so I have been off the net since I posted my last email, > and I cant believe the thread I have created !!! > > Back onto the original topic, I emailed the ABC after reading media articles about > the size of the tornado from a witness that saw it. He described it as the size of 2 > basketball courts in circumferance, and looking at the damage caused to the house > and what not it obviously wasnt a "mini" ( tiny, place something to describe > something small here") tornado, hence why I emailed the ABC. My opinion is that it > was a Tornado! not small, not large, but just simply a Tornado! > This has nothing whatsoever to do with ASWA, it was a personal decision and I was > happy with the outcome!!! They did remove the word mini tornado from there article > and put a link to 2 good Australian weather webpages after the article. If anyone > has something to say to me about emailing the ABC please tell me via personal email > address : tornado at bigpond.net.au , not mini-tornado at bigpond.net.au :) > > I am not going to give my opinion on the mini tornado debate, as many already have > and im sure the 200 odd people on this list dont want someone else's thoughts on it. > > Thanks, im sure I will see lots of NSW people at the AMOS meeting on wednesday > night. Im a little tired, off to work I go... *yawn* > > Matt Smith > http://www.sydneystormchasers.com > ASWA > http://www.severeweather.asn.au > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Michael Thompson" To: , "Phil Smith" Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fwd: "mini-tornado" and "Willy-willies" Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:55:25 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Maybe the Hong Kong media can benefit from Australian insight and start using the term mini typhoon. Could not resist. Remember folks don't get to passionate about the mini debate, enjoy it for what it is, debate the issues never the person posting. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Carl Smith To: Aussie Weather List ; Phil Smith Sent: Monday, 26 June 2000 3:55 Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: "mini-tornado" and "Willy-willies" > Hi All. > > I thought I would forward this email from my brother Phil in Hong Kong > regarding the tornado posts - I have forwarded several of them to him. > > Regards, > Carl. > > >From: "Phil Smith" > >To: "Carl Smith" > >Subject: "mini-tornado" and "Willy-willies" > >Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 15:35:14 +0800 > >Organization: Doctor Disk > > > > > >The arguments about "mini-tornado" are very interesting. > >When I was a kid in the 50's tornadoes were almost universally known as > >"willy-willies" the only trouble with that being that some less-informed > >people referred to Dust Devils as "Willy-willies". Our grandpa however, > >always used the term "tornado". > >Tornadoes have always been common in Australia, but in the days of early > >settlement, the settlers always asked the aboriginal people to advise where > >a town or farm could be built so that the tornadoes would miss it. We > >always understood this to be the reason that so few people were killed by > >them in Oz compared to the US. > >A tornado that clears a few trees and pinches a few dozen hay bales does not > >make for tremendously exciting reading for the average bloke, so the > >majority that occurred in Oz were never reported on any further than the > >local pub. > >There used to be an old aboriginal bloke out at Framlingham (South West > >Victoria) when I was a kid that used to be brought out whenever anyone was > >subdividing a property to advise the surveyors on safe places to build the > >new houses. He made a few bob out of it and probably some thought he was a > >con artist, but he was always called out when needed back around the start > >of the fifties. I wish I could remember his name and a few more details. > >It would make a good book/film. > > > >Phil > ><>< > > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 19:05:21 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Jimmy Deguara Subject: aus-wx: Anyone interested in this? Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com For those interested, here is information sent to me asking me to submit a paper. Well I obviously declined as I am not able to attend but I would encourage those interested to go and perhaps represent ASWA at the conference. Cheers Jimmy Deguara ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ 10th N.S.W. Coastal Conference "The Last Wave" The Challenge of Coastal Population Pressures and Climate Change. 20th-24th November 2000 YAMBA NSW CALL FOR PAPERS, SPEAKERS & WORKSHOP FACILITATORS Conference Background It is intended that the 10th N.S.W. Coastal Conference is the premier New South Wales forum for Coastal Management and climate change issues for local government and communities. The conference will focus on the practical application of coastal management and climate change strategies relevant at community level. The conference will: Provide a platform for key research scientists and innovative practitioners to target information and best practice to providers of services, infrastructure, and policy, for local communities. Provide a forum for scientists involved in coastal management research to interpret their findings for a lay audience with the authority to implement ideas at a community level Allow community-level professionals the opportunity for the cross-pollination of ideas and strategies associated with coastal management issues. The target audience is primarily local government, councillors and professional staff, also attracting delegates from industry, state and federal government, and community organisations. Topics will include, but are not limited to: Coastal erosion Processes, Population Pressures in Coastal Zones, Effects of Climate Change on the Coastal Zone, Water Quality Issues and Biological Sciences, Acid Sulphate Soils, Fish Bio-diversity/ Marine Mammal Management ,and Aspects of Aquaculture pertaining to the Coastal Zone, but not limited to these topics. Submissions received will also be considered in the planning of future conferences. Call for Papers In the first instance abstracts of less than 300 words should be submitted for consideration, including topic, main points, conclusions, application, contact details. Also forward brief CV and referees. Papers will be printed. Call for Speakers While speakers will be invited to address the conference, opportunities do exist for additional speakers. This also applies to those who wish to be considered in future years. Sessions will generally be 30 minutes in length, followed by a short question time. Speakers will be encouraged to either participate in, or facilitate, workshop sessions. Provide details as for "Papers". Call For Workshop Facilitators Workshops will generally be 90 minutes, and it is expected that they will focus on amelioration strategies and local solutions to the global problem of climate change Workshops may apply to a cross-section of conference delegates, or target special interest groups among the delegates. Organisations, including professional associations and business groups, are welcome to submit proposals. Provide details as for "Papers". ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Jimmy Deguara from Schofields, Sydney President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) http://severeweather.asn.au e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au homepage with Michael Bath note new URL http://australiasevereweather.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Originating-IP: [203.21.253.125] From: "Rod Aikman" To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: RE: aus-wx: Fairy Dell Tornado F rating (was mini tornadoes) Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2000 22:37:38 EST Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com John, Anthony & others, Whilst it may be reasonable to determine that the damage to the Merrett house is probably in the order of F1, The extent of damage to the former Fairy Dell Post Office is somewhat greater (ref. page 1 Bendigo Advertiser 24/6/00). This building was completely flattened. Admittedly this building was of timber frame construction, and probably of a reasonable age (perhaps 1920s). Also of note is the damage to trees adjacent to this building - they are just a tangled mess with some completely uprooted. It is my opinion that this damage is probably in the order of F2 at least. Regards, Rod Aikman 42 Panton St. Golden Square 3555 Bendigo Vic Hi Anthony, Well yes there are many problems with the F scale rating system. Not the least is how do you define "well constructed". I think the objective of only rating the most severe damage is to cater for the fact that the intensity of a tornado typically does vary considerably along the path, perhaps either due to temporary lifting, or simple variations in diameter or dynamic. So by definition, you can't really look at other lesser damage and say that it was probably a lesser scale event. It is not valid to say that some trees were intact nearby therefore it was probably only F1. In fact on video documentaries of F4 US tornadoes some trees in the path survived with relatively minor damage whereas others were snapped off or totally mangled. I think this just highlights the problems with the F scale rating and I am not convinced that the T scale is much better. I think Fujita's view was that the best estimate of a Tornadoes strength was the worst damage caused. Tricky of course if it goes through an open wheat field. All such tornadoes are F0 by definition. So the F rating is in fact just a damage rating not a strength rating (hence some folks preference for the T scale). But to get to a strength rating you need wind speed and without visible damage that is rather difficult to derive... These days I guess we all tend to think of F rating as a strength rating anyway (perhaps incorrectly). In Oz we have generally tougher building regulations than in the US (so I am told), thus you would hope that the Merret dwelling met the "well constructed" requirement. If not, then it could not have met Oz standards and they would have a valid claim against their builder. Re Fairy Dell, I must admit to have been slightly swayed by the eye witness account of entire trees rotating around the top of the funnel - what an awesome sight... (although I suspect that the 'top of the funnel' meant top of debris cloud and not parent cloud base. End of ramble. John. >snip Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fairy Dell Tornado F rating (was mini tornadoes) Hi John and all, I agree with the logic of which you base the F-rating on, but I guess there's a loop-hole with the F-rating. The thing that caught my eye, was that the house had been recently renovated - now, does this mean it had an extension put on the house? If so, was the extension the part of the house that was badly damaged? The main reason why I point this out, is because of the Cedar Pocket tornado in November last year, when ben and I went to survey the damage, one could argue F3 status too: http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/08-11-99%20House2.jpg However, the interesting part is, that the section of the house destroyed was the extension, yet the original house is nearly in-tact (except for the roofing). I thought of it as a little too much of a coincidence that there's such a distinct line in the damage. While I admit, it is possible that perhaps a multivortex tornado could have caused the discrepency of damage, there were still trees standing in the area where the tornado had hit (although many of them snapped off). I had seen F3 damage to trees, and it looks like some one went through with a bulldozer! The damage done to the trees can be seen here: http://www.bsch.simplenet.com/anthony/08-11-99%20Tree%20Clearing.jpg You can clearly see where the tornado has gone through, but the damage is really only superficial. Another house also hit by the tornado also exhibited classic F1 damage. While not an expert, I wrote up a damage report for the BoM in case they wanted it for reference. I concluded that I felt it was an F1 tornado, given the possible structual weaknesses. I got the impression that Jeff agreed on the whole, and I think it was filed away...but I'm not sure if the BoM will use that as their "official" rating or not. I thought that the tornado was a high F1-low F2 (Fairy Dell), but when I heard about the renovations, leant more towards F1. I guess you really need to have a look at the damage first-hand to try and avoid any discrepencies. Just my 2c :) Anthony Cornelius +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------