X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:08:05 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Jimmy Deguara Subject: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com I must say that the documentary on channel 7 this evening was mentioned to me at school in passing and I basically forgot. Thanks to Geoff dropping in and mentioning it and I put in a tape and taped it. I must say I have seen quite a few documentaries in past years nut this is definitely the best. It gets close to the videos Michael Thompson has on tornadoes and tornadic development during storm chases. This is despite the fact they called the several landspouts tornadoes. I am not so sure if one of these was a tornado and the others weren't or they were referring to these as an example on a documentary wgere a landspout was being observed in conjunction with a tornado. Never mind but they were landspouts. Spectacular to have 6 to 8 or so at once Jimmy Deguara ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Jimmy Deguara from Schofields, Sydney President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) http://severeweather.asn.au e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au homepage with Michael Bath note new URL http://australiasevereweather.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: disarm at mail.braenet.com.au X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 00:37:38 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Matt Smith Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com I missed it, but that 6-8 landspouts in a row, on the Tornado Video Classics series, they have footage of a whole heap of landspouts lined up in a row, and the guy pans across to each one counting them, im guessing its the same footage. Fantastic stuff... Im surprised at how the models are all being so consistant and not really weakening down this cold outbreak for SE AU. Will certainly be an interesting weekend if the models keep this up! Matt Smith >I must say that the documentary on channel 7 this evening was mentioned to >me at school in passing and I basically forgot. Thanks to Geoff dropping in >and mentioning it and I put in a tape and taped it. > >I must say I have seen quite a few documentaries in past years nut this is >definitely the best. It gets close to the videos Michael Thompson has on >tornadoes and tornadic development during storm chases. This is despite the >fact they called the several landspouts tornadoes. I am not so sure if one >of these was a tornado and the others weren't or they were referring to >these as an example on a documentary wgere a landspout was being observed >in conjunction with a tornado. Never mind but they were landspouts. >Spectacular to have 6 to 8 or so at once > >Jimmy Deguara >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >--------------- >Jimmy Deguara >from Schofields, Sydney >President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) >http://severeweather.asn.au >e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au >homepage with Michael Bath >note new URL >http://australiasevereweather.com/ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: carls at ford.ace-net.com.au Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 01:38:21 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Carl Smith Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi All. I saw and enjoyed the doco - those storm chasers among you that missed it should try to view it sometime - lots of good footage. Carl. >I missed it, but that 6-8 landspouts in a row, on the Tornado Video >Classics series, they have footage of a whole heap of landspouts lined up >in a row, and the guy pans across to each one counting them, im guessing >its the same footage. Fantastic stuff... > >Im surprised at how the models are all being so consistant and not really >weakening down this cold outbreak for SE AU. Will certainly be an >interesting weekend if the models keep this up! > >Matt Smith > >>I must say that the documentary on channel 7 this evening was mentioned to >>me at school in passing and I basically forgot. Thanks to Geoff dropping in >>and mentioning it and I put in a tape and taped it. >> >>I must say I have seen quite a few documentaries in past years nut this is >>definitely the best. It gets close to the videos Michael Thompson has on >>tornadoes and tornadic development during storm chases. This is despite the >>fact they called the several landspouts tornadoes. I am not so sure if one >>of these was a tornado and the others weren't or they were referring to >>these as an example on a documentary wgere a landspout was being observed >>in conjunction with a tornado. Never mind but they were landspouts. >>Spectacular to have 6 to 8 or so at once >> >>Jimmy Deguara >>---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>--------------- >>Jimmy Deguara >>from Schofields, Sydney >>President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) >>http://severeweather.asn.au >>e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au >>homepage with Michael Bath >>note new URL >>http://australiasevereweather.com/ >> >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ >> To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com >> with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your >> message. >> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ >> >> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 08:34:01 +1000 From: David Carroll X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: Aussie Weather Subject: aus-wx: Bathurst weather Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com HI . Nice extreme frost and fog this morning, looking out my front window and cannot see Mt Panorama at all. Fog covering all of Mountain.. I would say a -3 or -4 last night, still very cold. Grass very white,, looks like snow, but no that is for later in week by the sounds of it. Lets hope we see some snow aound Orange - Oberon areas on Sat - Sun.. Dave +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:28:58 +1000 From: Anthony Cornelius X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Jimmy, I agree with you in the fact that this is one of the better documentaries, as it didn't have as many stories on families (while I acknowledge that this is a sad event - some documentaries focus on this far too much). This one had much more footage then most - while many may have already seen some of the footage before, I certainly can never get enough of it :) But I disagree with you on one of your points here Jimmy: Jimmy Deguara wrote: >This is despite the fact they called the several landspouts tornadoes. I >am not so sure if one of these was a tornado and the others weren't or >they were referring to these as an example on a documentary wgere a >landspout was being observed in conjunction with a tornado. Never mind >but they were landspouts. Spectacular to have 6 to 8 or so at once The BoM definition of a tornado is: A tornado is defined as a tall, rapidly rotating column of air which is: - Attached to the base of a Cumulonimbus or cumulus congestus cloud; - Usually visible as a condensation funny and possibly a swirling debris cloud at the surface; and - capable of producing damage at the ground (Davies-Jones, 1986). It then goes on to explain the definition, and outlines while the condensation funnel may not reach the ground, if the vortex does, then it's a tornado. It then goes on to classify two types of tornadoes - supercellular, and non-supercellular. Under the heading of non-supercellular tornadoes, they have the definition of a landspout and a waterspout: - A landspout (Bluestein, 1993a) is simply a non-supercell tornado developing along convergent boundary over land as described above. - A waterspout is a non-supercell tornado that develops or moves over the sea. The funnel-shaped cloud of the waterspout, just as in all tornadoes, develops from unstable atmosperic conditions assocatied with a line of thunderstorms, or in many cases a line of vigorously developing cumulus congestus. (Hess, 1990.) I know that this issue is often an issue that many chasers/weather enthusiasts are divided on, but I believe that waterspouts and landspouts are all part of the tornado family, and certainly are just different types of tornadoes then the supercellular tornadoes. I believe a lot can be learnt from looking and comparing the conditions that cause non-supercellular and supercellular tornadoes. As one can then look at the different components and examine the data to see what is present, or absent in both cases, and possibly help explain why some tornadoes become monsters, and why others do not. -- Anthony Cornelius Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA) (07) 3390 4812 14 Kinsella St Belmont, Brisbane QLD, 4153 Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at http://www.severeweather.asn.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Les Crossan" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 23:52:41 +0100 Organization: Cosmic EuroCon - note all times are always GMT X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Cornelius > > - A landspout (Bluestein, 1993a) is simply a non-supercell tornado > developing along convergent boundary over land as described above. won't type out the half of page explanation of non-supercellular tornado > though A tornado is a tornado it's daft calling a non - supercell tornado a landspout! Here's the TORRO definition: Major whirlwinds: funnel clouds, tornadoes and waterspouts A major whirlwind may be defined as a helical rotation which is joined to a cumulonimbus cloud, or a towering or fast-growing cumulus cloud - and hence is associated with unsettled weather. The rotation will decend from the cloud-base as it develops and then retract back into the cloud-base as it decays. If the concentrated rotation does not reach the surface, the major whirlwind is termed a funnel cloud. However if the concentrated rotation reaches land the major whirlwind is termed a tornado, while if it reaches a water body (such as the sea, a lake or reservoir) it is termed a waterspout. A tornado may become a waterspout as the rotation moves from land to sea (and vice-versa). There is no nomenclature sub-division of tornadoes, waterspouts and funnel clouds, although they can all develop in a number of differing synoptic and mesoscale conditions. Les (UK) +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "John Woodbridge" To: Subject: RE: aus-wx: Offshore Cb's (was: Real Time Satellite Tracking) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 09:43:36 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Damien, Yeh, and with the relatively warm water there might the odd spout around too. John >snip ... Some models are looking interesting for us over the next few days - more coastal stuff *sigh* .. but i guess it beats blue sky... +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: Bathurst weather To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:12:32 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com > > HI . > > Nice extreme frost and fog this morning, looking out my front window and > cannot see Mt Panorama at all. Fog covering all of Mountain.. I would > say a -3 or -4 last night, still very cold. Grass very white,, looks > like snow, but no that is for later in week by the sounds of it. Lets > hope we see some snow aound Orange - Oberon areas on Sat - Sun.. > > Dave > -6.2, the second-coldest May minimum in the records I have digitised (1921 to present; note that this doesn't match the Bureau web site which only covers the post-1966 period there). This seems to have been the most relatively extreme observation, but I was also impressed by Armidale (-6), Forbes Airport (-4), Tumbarumba (-6), Cooma (-7) and Rutherglen (-4). There is clearly a substantial inversion (and the upper-level winds make a big difference too); Charlotte Pass only got down to 1. Blair Trewin +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:12:17 +1000 From: Anthony Cornelius X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Landspouts are tornadoes (was) Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Les and all, Les Crossan wrote: > > A tornado is a tornado it's daft calling a non - supercell tornado a > landspout! I have no problem with people using landspout or waterspouts as a descriptive term to describe a non-supercellular tornado over land or water. It's when the terms are confused, or considered to be something different (ie, landspouts and waterspouts being completely different to tornadoes), that the problem arises. As Matt Pearce once pointed out to me in another example along a mini-tornado debate in IRC - the term "mini-tornado" could be used to describe a very small, or short lived weak tornado. But it's when a "mini-tornado" and a "tornado" are confused to be something different, that is when the problem arises. -- Anthony Cornelius Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA) (07) 3390 4812 14 Kinsella St Belmont, Brisbane QLD, 4153 Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at http://www.severeweather.asn.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 10:42:31 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Miguel de Salas Subject: Re: Landspouts are tornadoes (was) Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com At 10:12 AM 23-05-2000 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Les and all, > >Les Crossan wrote: > >> >> A tornado is a tornado it's daft calling a non - supercell tornado a >> landspout! > > >I have no problem with people using landspout or waterspouts as a >descriptive term to describe a non-supercellular tornado over land or >water. It's when the terms are confused, or considered to be something >different (ie, landspouts and waterspouts being completely different to >tornadoes), that the problem arises. As Matt Pearce once pointed out to >me in another example along a mini-tornado debate in IRC - the term >"mini-tornado" could be used to describe a very small, or short lived >weak tornado. But it's when a "mini-tornado" and a "tornado" are >confused to be something different, that is when the problem arises. > >-- There was a thunderstorm in Devonport about a month ago, which caused some pretty spectacular damage, especially near the Mersey General Hospital, where a row of European poplars lining the road were snapped through the middle of the trunk and tossed all over the place. However, when I drove past the day after, all the damage was in one direction: all te trees were snapped one way, and fallen trees were all aligned, which led me to think the damage was a result of straight-line winds. The whole episode, as A. Boskell reported, only lasted about 15 minutes. I was pretty astonished when I heard, and later read about the damage having been caused by a "mini-tornado"... The whole thing happened in the middle of the night, and so suddendly that nobody saw anything like a tornado. Also, as I said, damage was pretty much unidirectional, although it did follow a narrow path. However, the latter is not uncommon for a small, intense storm. Is it? Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science, University of Tasmania, PO Box 252-55, Sandy Bay, Hobart Tasmania, Australia, 7001. mailto://mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au My Moths Page: http://members.xoom.com/migueldes/moths/moths.html +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold outbreak update To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:24:30 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Today's model runs are now in. They have all maintained the intensity of the cold outbreak, but have turned it into a more classical southwesterly outbreak without the closed low near Tasmania, and clear things out more quickly. GASP has a tongue of sub-524 air almost reaching Mount Gambier on Friday night and sub-528 covering most of southern Victoria from Melbourne westward. On Saturday the sub-528 zone covers eastern Victoria and SE NSW south of Sydney, with 524 locally over Gippsland. By Sunday night, although the flow remains a deep SW with a long fetch, thicknesses are above 536 over the full mainland. The ECMWF thickness pattern on Friday and Saturday is almost identical to GASP over Victoria, but they have an even colder pool over Tasmania (sub-524 generally, and locally down to 519). They also push things back up over 536 on Sunday, but with a more westerly flow (as a prelude to a cutoff developing over SA on Monday). UKMO, unusually, is not quite as cold as the other two, with thicknesses bottoming out around 528 in SW Victoria on Friday and 530 over eastern Victoria on Saturday, although they push sub-532 air as far as the Central Tablelands. No model is now going for cold pools moving into Queensland. Blair Trewin +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 May 2000 19:25:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew Boskell Subject: Re: Landspouts are tornadoes (was) Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com G'day Miguel & All, Where did you read that the storm that hit Devonport was a "mini" tornado? I would be interested in reading it myself. I never seen anything that suggested "mini" tornado to me. The winds seemed to be straight-line. I could be wrong, and I've still heard nothing from the Bureau. Back in 1990 a "mini" tornado passed close to where I was living at time and the damage path was very narrow. The winds sounded like a jet plane, and at 4am that's what I thought it was! But with this recent event I didn't see or hear anything that would suggest - Tornado. I did look at most of the damage from Ulverstone thru to Latrobe and it didn't look like a tornado had moved thru. But who knows...as I said, I could be wrong? Regards, --- Miguel de Salas wrote: > At 10:12 AM 23-05-2000 +1000, you wrote: > >Hi Les and all, > > > >Les Crossan wrote: > > > >> > >> A tornado is a tornado it's daft calling a non - > supercell tornado a > >> landspout! > > > > > >I have no problem with people using landspout or > waterspouts as a > >descriptive term to describe a non-supercellular > tornado over land or > >water. It's when the terms are confused, or > considered to be something > >different (ie, landspouts and waterspouts being > completely different to > >tornadoes), that the problem arises. As Matt > Pearce once pointed out to > >me in another example along a mini-tornado debate > in IRC - the term > >"mini-tornado" could be used to describe a very > small, or short lived > >weak tornado. But it's when a "mini-tornado" and a > "tornado" are > >confused to be something different, that is when > the problem arises. > > > >-- > > There was a thunderstorm in Devonport about a month > ago, which caused some > pretty spectacular damage, especially near the > Mersey General Hospital, > where a row of European poplars lining the road were > snapped through the > middle of the trunk and tossed all over the place. > However, when I drove > past the day after, all the damage was in one > direction: all te trees were > snapped one way, and fallen trees were all aligned, > which led me to think > the damage was a result of straight-line winds. The > whole episode, as A. > Boskell reported, only lasted about 15 minutes. > I was pretty astonished when I heard, and later read > about the damage > having been caused by a "mini-tornado"... > The whole thing happened in the middle of the night, > and so suddendly that > nobody saw anything like a tornado. Also, as I said, > damage was pretty much > unidirectional, although it did follow a narrow > path. However, the latter > is not uncommon for a small, intense storm. Is it? > > Miguel de Salas > > School of Plant Science, > University of Tasmania, > PO Box 252-55, Sandy Bay, Hobart > Tasmania, Australia, 7001. > > mailto://mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au > > My Moths Page: > http://members.xoom.com/migueldes/moths/moths.html > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail > to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather > your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ ===== Andrew Boskell "Some people are weather wise, others are otherwise!" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 12:40:01 +1000 From: Andrew Miskelly X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) To: Aussie Weather Subject: aus-wx: Approaching Weather Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi all, The forecast for the weekend looks fantastic at the moment for SE aus but with the nature of this weather, the following week could be very interesting aswell. It seems to me that the reason the weather looks like it'll be so exceptional on the weekend is that the following high is so far south that it is pushing up air from half way to Antarctica! This suggests to me that during the following week, rather than having severe frosts, the ranges will have cloudy possibly showery weather which will make things very bleak and that we could see some record maximums in WA and SA with the airflow coming so far over the continent. Any thoughts? Andrew. -- Andrew Miskelly Illawarra/Southern Tablelands, NSW amiskelly at ozemail.com.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 13:26:07 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Miguel de Salas Subject: Re: Landspouts are tornadoes (was) Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com At 07:25 PM 22-05-2000 -0700, you wrote: >G'day Miguel & All, > >Where did you read that the storm that hit Devonport >was a "mini" tornado? I would be interested in reading >it myself. I never seen anything that suggested "mini" >tornado to me. The winds seemed to be straight-line. I >could be wrong, and I've still heard nothing from the >Bureau. Back in 1990 a "mini" tornado passed close to >where I was living at time and the damage path was >very narrow. The winds sounded like a jet plane, and >at 4am that's what I thought it was! But with this >recent event I didn't see or hear anything that would >suggest - Tornado. I did look at most of the damage >from Ulverstone thru to Latrobe and it didn't look >like a tornado had moved thru. But who knows...as I >said, I could be wrong? As I was saying, I thought it was all a load of crap anyway :) A guy I teach, who is from Ulverstone, was discussing it with me, and he'd heard about it. I think I read it in either the advocate or the examiner, whichever they read in Smithton :) I drove through on the monday morning after the storm (sat night), and all the debris was still lying around. However, it definetly looked like straight line winds. Miguel de Salas School of Plant Science, University of Tasmania, PO Box 252-55, Sandy Bay, Hobart Tasmania, Australia, 7001. mailto://mm_de at postoffice.utas.edu.au My Moths Page: http://members.xoom.com/migueldes/moths/moths.html +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 16:28:45 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Jimmy Deguara Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Anthony and list, In the context of the documentary, they were treating those as the same as other tornadoes that had been shown throughout the documentary. My impression is that the general audience got the impression that there was no difference. They would go to work and say that there were multiple tornadoes which in the scientific definition is not the same as what we accustomed to the mother and daughters scenario. Even if one does want to call those tornadoes by definitions, then they should have differentiated them and called them landspouts which would have at least given the impression that there was some difference. We have discussed this in an earlier forum where the differences between tornadoes, and landspouts and waterspouts are the differentiated based on their developmental processes. What you are doing Anthony is simply redefining the definition of the tornado based on the literature as if to be in a scientifically correct. But my argument is that tornadoes in their true sense which we set out to explore are different to the other "things" (lanspouts or non-supercellular tornadoes). And further to this, if you are going to create a category called non-supercellular , then surely tornadoes that develop from multicells and intense areas of squall lines are different in formation and structure to the landspouts and waterspouts so to speak. I also don't like the definition that the BoM uses in their database that tornadoes in our true sense forming on water are waterspouts by definition. This makes it difficult to categorise. If I were to do research, I would like these separated based on the differences mentioned above. An analogy to this is to try and categorise "altocumulus". Is it by definition middle level or lower level? By definition middle level. From my observational experience, stratocumulus and altocumulus can overlap. So altocumulus with not so much ice crystals can appear more like stratocumulus (particularly in lower layers) and vice versa in some cases. It is therefore dependent upon the temperature variations in the low to middle part of the atmosphere that determine the appearance and characteristics of the stratocumulus and altocumulus. It was after several years of confusion that I realised without reading it in books that there was a such thing as stratocumulus lenticularis and also stratocumulus castellanus. Well I feel there is. So really definitions are put into place to try and categorise things. If definitions change then so do the items in the category. Jimmy Deguara At 09:28 23/05/00 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Jimmy, > >I agree with you in the fact that this is one of the better >documentaries, as it didn't have as many stories on families (while I >acknowledge that this is a sad event - some documentaries focus on this >far too much). This one had much more footage then most - while many >may have already seen some of the footage before, I certainly can never >get enough of it :) > >But I disagree with you on one of your points here Jimmy: > >Jimmy Deguara wrote: > >This is despite the fact they called the several landspouts tornadoes. > I >am not so sure if one of these was a tornado and the others weren't > or >they were referring to these as an example on a documentary wgere > a >landspout was being observed in conjunction with a tornado. Never > mind >but they were landspouts. Spectacular to have 6 to 8 or so at once > >The BoM definition of a tornado is: A tornado is defined as a tall, >rapidly rotating column of air which is: >- Attached to the base of a Cumulonimbus or cumulus congestus cloud; >- Usually visible as a condensation funny and possibly a swirling debris >cloud at the surface; and >- capable of producing damage at the ground (Davies-Jones, 1986). > >It then goes on to explain the definition, and outlines while the >condensation funnel may not reach the ground, if the vortex does, then >it's a tornado. > >It then goes on to classify two types of tornadoes - supercellular, and >non-supercellular. Under the heading of non-supercellular tornadoes, >they have the definition of a landspout and a waterspout: > >- A landspout (Bluestein, 1993a) is simply a non-supercell tornado >developing along convergent boundary over land as described above. won't type out the half of page explanation of non-supercellular tornado >though!> > >- A waterspout is a non-supercell tornado that develops or moves over >the sea. The funnel-shaped cloud of the waterspout, just as in all >tornadoes, develops from unstable atmosperic conditions assocatied with >a line of thunderstorms, or in many cases a line of vigorously >developing cumulus congestus. (Hess, 1990.) > >I know that this issue is often an issue that many chasers/weather >enthusiasts are divided on, but I believe that waterspouts and >landspouts are all part of the tornado family, and certainly are just >different types of tornadoes then the supercellular tornadoes. I >believe a lot can be learnt from looking and comparing the conditions >that cause non-supercellular and supercellular tornadoes. As one can >then look at the different components and examine the data to see what >is present, or absent in both cases, and possibly help explain why some >tornadoes become monsters, and why others do not. >-- >Anthony Cornelius >Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association >(ASWA) >(07) 3390 4812 >14 Kinsella St >Belmont, Brisbane >QLD, 4153 >Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm >reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at >http://www.severeweather.asn.au > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Jimmy Deguara from Schofields, Sydney President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) http://severeweather.asn.au e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au homepage with Michael Bath note new URL http://australiasevereweather.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "John Woodbridge" To: Subject: RE: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:03:19 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Jimmy, I would tend to disagree with this comment: >snip ... But my argument is that tornadoes in their true sense which we set out to explore are different to the other "things" (lanspouts or non-supercellular tornadoes). And further to this, if you are going to create a category called non-supercellular , then surely tornadoes that develop from multicells and intense areas of squall lines are different in formation and structure to the landspouts and waterspouts so to speak. ... I suggest that if it were possible to analyse the tornado, landspout, waterspout, and dust devil in terms of 3d vector analysis and fluid dynamics we would find that the structure and sustaining mechanisms in terms of air flows and pressure gradients are basically identical... it is just a question of scale and intensity. A similar analogy would apply to water going down a plug hole as compared to the massive whirlpools found at sea. I think arguing over terminology is thus all a bit silly, we might just as well call them 'Sucky Whirly Things'... :), all are equally deserving of study so that we can achieve understanding of the processes involved. Certainly Fujita thought so, hence his (successful) attempts to simulate funnels on a small scale in the lab. John. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: Blair Trewin Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold outbreak update To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:29:30 +1000 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL2] Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Just in case previous model runs didn't get everyone excited enough, the 00Z GASP run (just out) has a thickness of 522 over Melbourne on Saturday morning... Blair Trewin +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:58:21 +1000 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Jimmy Deguara Subject: RE: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi John, You have in a way acted like the media and cut out the whole argument and concentrated one part. What I am saying throughout the argument is that the processes that lead to the development of the so-called "funnels" are different. I never suggested anything about the end product - nor did I suggest that one was more important than the other. However, I will await for documented evidence that will prove the links between the various types of funnels before I accept the definition of the tornado as Anthony suggests. I suppose eventually we will see a link between all the various scales from minor eddies to dust devils all the way to tropical cyclones. I suppose I didn't come up with these categories either. However, I do agree with the concept of the vector dynamics of vorticies being similar but identical - I am not so sure. I suppose not all tornadoes are similar either even if scale are taken into account. Otherwise one will not categorise multi-vortex tornadoes as compared to the so called visible funnel tornado type. Yes I know they are all linked as Fujita was able to demonstrate in his experiments. What I am saying is that there is no right or wrong argument to all this. I feel it is again based on how one decides to define what is observed. Jimmy Deguara At 18:03 23/05/00 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Jimmy, > >I would tend to disagree with this comment: > > >snip >... >But my argument is that tornadoes in their true sense which we set out to >explore are different to the other "things" (lanspouts or non-supercellular >tornadoes). > >And further to this, if you are going to create a category called >non-supercellular , then surely tornadoes that develop from multicells and >intense areas of squall lines are different in formation and structure to >the landspouts and waterspouts so to speak. >... > >I suggest that if it were possible to analyse the tornado, landspout, >waterspout, and dust devil in terms of 3d vector analysis and fluid >dynamics we would find that the structure and sustaining mechanisms in terms >of air flows and pressure gradients are basically identical... it is just >a question of scale and intensity. > >A similar analogy would apply to water going down a plug hole as compared to >the massive whirlpools found at sea. > >I think arguing over terminology is thus all a bit silly, we might just as >well >call them 'Sucky Whirly Things'... :), all are equally deserving of study so >that we can achieve understanding of the processes involved. Certainly >Fujita thought so, hence his (successful) attempts to simulate funnels on >a small scale in the lab. > >John. > > > > > > > > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- Jimmy Deguara from Schofields, Sydney President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) http://severeweather.asn.au e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au homepage with Michael Bath note new URL http://australiasevereweather.com/ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Sender: astroman at mail.chariot.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 18:45:17 +0930 To: aussie-weather at world.std.com From: Andrew Wall Subject: RE: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com My Opinion, I feel naming different vortices different names is stupid, most people in the general public would associate a strong vortex over land as a tornado, and one over water a water spout. Dust devils are characterized by their reasonably less severe wind plus raised dust etc... and no cloud base. The public understands these terms, if anyone were to throw at them 20 different names for 20 different types of Vortices, they would be really confused, I wouldn't want to be the one explaining how each one of them is different. I spoke to a guy at work and out of pure conversation I threw in landspout, he looked at me in confusion, I just told him "sort of like a tornado". Sure we can name off all the names but if we are going to have an argument over these names every time it is brought up, maybe we should do something about it. What? I don't know. The media is a strong force in the public, making them aware of the differences maybe the key we need to get to the general public. Maybe instead of naming them differently we could give them numbers, this would probably goto 1001, Fujita scale does not work anymore (sorry to say) the scale at which a vortex destroys cannot be justified as a true scientific scale, we need to study the speeds of wind, the amount of particles (dust, soil, trees, cows), how much moisture that is taken up into the vortex. This is very difficult to do, maybe we should work on a way to do it. This is the only real way that I can see that we can distinguish between all these classifications. Possibly there are other ways? My opinions end. Andrew Wall At 06:03 PM 5/23/00 +1000, you wrote: >Hi Jimmy, > >I would tend to disagree with this comment: > > >snip >... >But my argument is that tornadoes in their true sense which we set out to >explore are different to the other "things" (lanspouts or non-supercellular >tornadoes). > >And further to this, if you are going to create a category called >non-supercellular , then surely tornadoes that develop from multicells and >intense areas of squall lines are different in formation and structure to >the landspouts and waterspouts so to speak. >... > >I suggest that if it were possible to analyse the tornado, landspout, >waterspout, and dust devil in terms of 3d vector analysis and fluid >dynamics we would find that the structure and sustaining mechanisms in terms >of air flows and pressure gradients are basically identical... it is just >a question of scale and intensity. > >A similar analogy would apply to water going down a plug hole as compared to >the massive whirlpools found at sea. > >I think arguing over terminology is thus all a bit silly, we might just as >well >call them 'Sucky Whirly Things'... :), all are equally deserving of study so >that we can achieve understanding of the processes involved. Certainly >Fujita thought so, hence his (successful) attempts to simulate funnels on >a small scale in the lab. > >John. > > > > > > > > > > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 19:56:44 +1000 From: Anthony Cornelius X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi John and all, John Woodbridge wrote: > I suggest that if it were possible to analyse the tornado, landspout, > waterspout, and dust devil in terms of 3d vector analysis and fluid > dynamics we would find that the structure and sustaining mechanisms in terms > of air flows and pressure gradients are basically identical... it is just > a question of scale and intensity. I believe John has hit the nail on the head here so to speak, it really is a question of scale and intensity. DD's are slightly different in the way that they form from the ground, up - but no doubt will have the same driving mechanisms in a different scale. I do think that some of the comments have strayed a little to what I was originally saying. My opinion is that a landspout or a waterspout is simply a tornado, but labelled differently. I don't care what they're called though! :) (lol at John's terminology) Just I thought that I would make my opinion that a landspout is a tornado, so to call the 6 landspouts that Jimmy was referring to "tornadoes" is essentially correct. Now it's my turn to stray In regards to tornadoes, an analogy to this could be thunderstorms - all forming from the same essential ingredients, but if some ingredients are present in a "higher proportion" then sometimes severe supercells can form instead of non-severe single cells/multicells. But it does not mean that we should not classify all of these under the one sub-heading of "thunderstorms." As I said - in the first email, I was just voicing my opinion that landspouts and waterspouts are essentially tornadoes :) -- Anthony Cornelius Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA) (07) 3390 4812 14 Kinsella St Belmont, Brisbane QLD, 4153 Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at http://www.severeweather.asn.au +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Lyle Pakula" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold outbreak update Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 21:25:29 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Blair, as a BoM staff memeber, you may be interested in this. Radio stations (not TV stations that I know of) have been giving forecasts for the weekend, such as; "Snow In Ringwood!" "Over A Meter This Weekend!" etc etc Now, I'm worried about this because of the misleading information - there not mentioning that the winds are going to become quite severe and you wouldn't like to be caught up in the blizzard that will kick in this weekend. Does this make them liable for false reports/neglegent reports/unofficial forecasts/etc - ie like the discussion a while back about aus-wx people making their own predicitons??? Cheers, Lyle. - - ---==( lyle_pakula at hotmail.com )==--- - - . / \ . /~~~\/ \ " No Friends On A Powder Day " / \ \ / \ \ ----- Original Message ----- From: Blair Trewin To: Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2000 6:29 PM Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold outbreak update > Just in case previous model runs didn't get everyone excited enough, > the 00Z GASP run (just out) has a thickness of 522 over Melbourne on > Saturday morning... > > Blair Trewin > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "McDonald" To: Subject: aus-wx: Cold Outbreak Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:21:52 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Hey Peoples,
 
I seriously think snowfalls of 100cm are not out of the question.  The fact that there will be gale force winds  - well that's probably also true.  I've been looking at some models and NGP is going for 500mb temps on Saturday morning over Melbourne of -38C  <--that is NOT a typo!!!!!!!  I recall 300mb temperatures of -28C during the summer!!!!!  This is shaping up to be a one in 25 or 30 year event and if it does come about as forecast I'm sure it will be etched in the minds of a lot of Australians.  850mb temps of -4C forecast also - giving and extreme lapse rate of 9C/km which is extremely strong!!!!
 
I would love to see plenty of people out chasing this weekend too.  Not only is there the chance of big snowfalls and snowfalls in very very low lying areas, there is also the chance of severe thunderstorms of the cold air (very cold) variety.  I believe conditions on Saturday morning are shaping up fairly nicely for waterspouts/cold air tornadoes over parts of southern Victoria and I wouldn't be surprised either to see reports of large falls or large sizes of hail.
 
Check out Melbourne Storm Chasers May Discussion page for very regular updates as to the progress of this event and keep watching the Melbourne Web Cam (linked on the MSC page) over the weekend.
 
 
Enjoy this event people!!!!!  I know I won't - i'm in QLD on business for the weekend (good time to break a leg or something don't you think?)
 
Andrew "annoyed" McDonald
 
Macca - MSC
 
 
From: "Michael Thompson" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:32:41 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Did anybody tape this, if so can I borrow the tape. I was in Newcastle from Sunday to tonight and as my video was flogged about a month was unable to tape it. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Jimmy Deguara To: Sent: Tuesday, 23 May 2000 0:08 Subject: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" > I must say that the documentary on channel 7 this evening was mentioned to > me at school in passing and I basically forgot. Thanks to Geoff dropping in > and mentioning it and I put in a tape and taped it. > > I must say I have seen quite a few documentaries in past years nut this is > definitely the best. It gets close to the videos Michael Thompson has on > tornadoes and tornadic development during storm chases. This is despite the > fact they called the several landspouts tornadoes. I am not so sure if one > of these was a tornado and the others weren't or they were referring to > these as an example on a documentary wgere a landspout was being observed > in conjunction with a tornado. Never mind but they were landspouts. > Spectacular to have 6 to 8 or so at once > > Jimmy Deguara > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --------------- > Jimmy Deguara > from Schofields, Sydney > President of Australian Severe Weather Association Inc. (ASWA) > http://severeweather.asn.au > e-mail: jdeguara at ihug.com.au > homepage with Michael Bath > note new URL > http://australiasevereweather.com/ > > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Michael Thompson" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:41:14 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com I have to go with Jimmy on this, I think the landspout term is very appropriate in that the mechanisms are similar to a waterspout. Landspout means to me - no wall cloud, flat based Cu (even congestus), no mesocyclone. This is different to some non-supercell tornadoes in that they can look very much like a supercell tornado and be formed on inflow - outflow boundary associated with often ragged chaotic cloud bases, unlike landspouts. Regards Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: Anthony Cornelius To: Sent: Tuesday, 23 May 2000 9:28 Subject: Re: aus-wx: the documentary "storm force" > Hi Jimmy, > > I agree with you in the fact that this is one of the better > documentaries, as it didn't have as many stories on families (while I > acknowledge that this is a sad event - some documentaries focus on this > far too much). This one had much more footage then most - while many > may have already seen some of the footage before, I certainly can never > get enough of it :) > > But I disagree with you on one of your points here Jimmy: > > Jimmy Deguara wrote: > >This is despite the fact they called the several landspouts tornadoes. I >am not so sure if one of these was a tornado and the others weren't or >they were referring to these as an example on a documentary wgere a >landspout was being observed in conjunction with a tornado. Never mind >but they were landspouts. Spectacular to have 6 to 8 or so at once > > The BoM definition of a tornado is: A tornado is defined as a tall, > rapidly rotating column of air which is: > - Attached to the base of a Cumulonimbus or cumulus congestus cloud; > - Usually visible as a condensation funny and possibly a swirling debris > cloud at the surface; and > - capable of producing damage at the ground (Davies-Jones, 1986). > > It then goes on to explain the definition, and outlines while the > condensation funnel may not reach the ground, if the vortex does, then > it's a tornado. > > It then goes on to classify two types of tornadoes - supercellular, and > non-supercellular. Under the heading of non-supercellular tornadoes, > they have the definition of a landspout and a waterspout: > > - A landspout (Bluestein, 1993a) is simply a non-supercell tornado > developing along convergent boundary over land as described above. won't type out the half of page explanation of non-supercellular tornado > though!> > > - A waterspout is a non-supercell tornado that develops or moves over > the sea. The funnel-shaped cloud of the waterspout, just as in all > tornadoes, develops from unstable atmosperic conditions assocatied with > a line of thunderstorms, or in many cases a line of vigorously > developing cumulus congestus. (Hess, 1990.) > > I know that this issue is often an issue that many chasers/weather > enthusiasts are divided on, but I believe that waterspouts and > landspouts are all part of the tornado family, and certainly are just > different types of tornadoes then the supercellular tornadoes. I > believe a lot can be learnt from looking and comparing the conditions > that cause non-supercellular and supercellular tornadoes. As one can > then look at the different components and examine the data to see what > is present, or absent in both cases, and possibly help explain why some > tornadoes become monsters, and why others do not. > -- > Anthony Cornelius > Queensland Coordinator of the Australian Severe Weather Association > (ASWA) > (07) 3390 4812 > 14 Kinsella St > Belmont, Brisbane > QLD, 4153 > Please report severe thunderstorms on our Queensland severe thunderstorm > reporting line on (07) 3390 4218 or by going to our homepage at > http://www.severeweather.asn.au > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com > with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your > message. > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "Pearce" To: Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold outbreak update Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 22:56:28 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi Lyle and all Unfortunately, this practise is not confined to simply this event with radio stations. Quite often in Sydney, and probably other places, radio news bulletins read out the official forecast as only either "rain" or "fine" depending on whether the forecast mentions any precip at all or not. So, you sometimes have the situation of a forecast reading "chance late shower" and it happens to be blue sky at the moment at 7am. The newsreader decides for themself that its not going to happen and says something along the lines of "The BoM is forecasting rain but it looks like they've got it wrong again" and dismiss the forecast. It is not all stations that do this, but there are a number of main culprits. The ABC is the best in my view, simply becuase they read the BoM forecasts out word for word. Another good initiative they have is talking to someone from the Bureau twice daily each weekday afternoon so you always have an accurate forecast presented. I suppose the safest bet is to check the web site yourself if you are planning on heading to the mountains or going boating or something like that, but lots of people don't, and I think this is something that radio stations should seriously reconsider ie only reading out the BoM's official forecast. I don't think it is the same as the aus-wx people making their own forecasts, simply because the media are only doing it to create a story and do not profess to be basing their headlines on any meteorological knowledge. The vast majority of amateurs on this list who forecast, of which I am one, try to present the information factually to the best of their ability based on the available data and do not face pressures of making their forecasts as sensational as possible. I think it would be a very sad day if and when it was ever proposed that amateurs were not allowed to put their own forecasts on public internet space anymore as this would cut off a great tool for improving weather knowledge. Enough of my ramblings Matthew Pearce +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ X-Originating-IP: [203.166.12.248] From: "Kevin Phyland" To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Subject: aus-wx: TORNADOES and tornadoes... Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:34:39 EST Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com Hi every1, I've been reading this thread with a great deal of interest and a number of thoughts have occurred to me... [1] I do not believe a tornado can occur without a thunderstorm. This means that waterspouts (formed from cumuliform and not CB clouds) do not qualify... [2] Dust-devils (or any other super-adiabatic phenomena) do not qualify as tornadoes - for a number of reasons... (not least being that they are generally very short-lived, can rotate either way and are not condensation-based) [3] The genesis of tornadoes (if not the exact mechanics) are well documented and suggest an ordered and possibly forecastable (is that a word?) sequence of events, because of the dynamics.... If you want to call a waterspout a tornado...make sure it came from a thunderstorm...if you want to call a dust-devil a tornado...make sure the dust is going towards a thunderstorm... ...because if there is only one constant with "tornado" formation it seems to be the existence of a thunderstorm (regardless of any other conditions) anything else would seem to be semantics... My thoughts... Kevin. P.S. The "landspout" thing I'm not sure of...the existence of non-supercellular tornadoes seems to be a given...what you choose to call them is moot... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your message. -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ From: "McDonald" To: Subject: aus-wx: Cold outbreak update Date: Tue, 23 May 2000 23:14:57 +1000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Thanks for sticking up for all of us Dr Pearce. 
 
I enjoy making my own forecast/analysing models and I hope to be able to continue to voice them to people in the future - no matter how extreme they are....just wait til you see my next one to the MSC may page......and that one is as serious as the rest!!!
 
 
Enjoy!  :-)
 
Macca