Author Topic: Lightning Streamer, reflection or digital internal reflections?  (Read 19293 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mike

  • Australian Severe Weather Moderators
  • Wedge tornado F5
  • *
  • Posts: 1,348
  • Gender: Male
  • Dry season here...boring!
    • http://StormscapesDarwin.com
Hey Dave,  Jeepers a few problems with the internals of your camera?  Is the mirror inside loose?  The captures by the camera seem to be way off timing  (not by you, but the camera shutter?) - glad to here it's not always though! 

Mike
Darwin, Northern Territory.
StormscapesDarwin.com
Lightning Research 2010/14

Offline Jimmy Deguara

  • Australian and Tornado Alley storm chaser
  • Administrator
  • Wedge tornado F5
  • *
  • Posts: 2,218
  • Gender: Male
  • Storm Chaser since 1993, Tornado Alley 2001
    • Australia Severe Weather
Hi Jeff et al,

I would like you all to download and play this piece of video from the 2001 Derecho event. The lightning hits nearby and was very bright. Note however how there seems to be reflections of the bolt further ahead!

http://www.australiasevereweather.com/video/movies/2001/0527jd10.wmv

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara
-------------------------------------
Australian Severe Weather
www.australiasevereweather.com

Australian Thunderbolt Tours
www.thunderbolttours.com

Phone  0408 020468  (International :  61  2  408 020468)

Offline Shaun Galman

  • Stove pipe F3
  • *
  • Posts: 441
  • Gender: Male
    • ridgelightning.com
Hi guys,
I have experienced these "artifacts" in my video before and have shown them to Michael Bath a few times and he told me to post one of the images. I believe they are positive or step streamers that have not connected to the step leaders. I have seen them in almost every active daylight storm we've got on video. I have clearly noticed them appearing like a "pink camera flash" even with my eyes, they also have a strange warm sensation when around. Russell (my lightning photographer partner in crime) and I have both shot day storms with digital video cameras, he uses a relatively old JVC handheld DV and I use my Nikon8700 in video mode. His camera does not pick them up at strangely enough? We thought the infra-red capabilities of some cameras might be a little greater than others and so making it easier to pick the streamers up? The image here is a composite of 5 frames overlayed and shot in Russell's back yard. Lightning Ridge, NSW. I did see the main leader coming off the fence quite clearly and can assure you it was no camera artifact! ; )



Cheers guys.
Shaun.
« Last Edit: 19 March 2007, 01:34:44 PM by Shaun Galman »
Chasing Region: Lightning Ridge. N.S.W.
Website: www.ridgelightning.com

Offline Mike

  • Australian Severe Weather Moderators
  • Wedge tornado F5
  • *
  • Posts: 1,348
  • Gender: Male
  • Dry season here...boring!
    • http://StormscapesDarwin.com
G'day Shaun.

Certainly a inquistive photo you have there.  Electrical discharges are one of those things that baffles even the experts.  So much so experts still don't know 'why' it does what it does.  That's a fact! 

did you experience any buzzing in the air, any peculiar cracks of thunder or what did you hear if anything when you took the shot?

 The plot thickens!

Mike
Darwin, Northern Territory.
StormscapesDarwin.com
Lightning Research 2010/14

Offline Dave Nelson

  • Elephant Trunk F2
  • *
  • Posts: 172
  • Gender: Male
    • Stormy Sydney
Hey Dave,  Jeepers a few problems with the internals of your camera?  Is the mirror inside loose?  The captures by the camera seem to be way off timing  (not by you, but the camera shutter?) - glad to here it's not always though! 

Mike

No nothing wrong with either camera Mike,   both of them are in good working order    :)
as commented its just a artifact thing produced by digital still cameras, USUALLY only during video mode or digital
movie cameras at any time

  Hmmmmm  dunno Shaun,   still have my doubts  ....   If those of yours really were streamers  that would be pretty cool
  If your did feel those effects then in that case you really mite have struck it lucky, I cant argue with that   :)
 I would still like to see other frames of your video following the frame you have shown, individually ... not overlain 

Am always open to any possibility  .... after all its a weird world out there when dealing with mother nature  :)

Cheers
Dave N



Offline Shaun Galman

  • Stove pipe F3
  • *
  • Posts: 441
  • Gender: Male
    • ridgelightning.com
G'day and thanks for your questions guys. Mike, the warmness I have felt from the streamers is a very strange sensation indeed but I don't recall hearing any buzzing while taking this video footage (from the image above in Russ' backyard) as it was hailing at the time, it could well have been though? A good friend of mine has experienced that while out photographing a storm in Albury, NSW quite recently, telling me that a street sign behind him was buzzing fairly loudly but it wasn't hit (lucky for him!), I could tell you without a doubt if heard an object buzzing while in a storm I don't think I'd hang around lol!

I have shown numerous people these streamers in my front yard during a storm and I can assuredly tell you they are blown away! My father is 70yrs old and even he could see pink flashes as I pointed them out? We were lucky enough to see one during that storm about 3mtrs in front of us and was 4mtrs or so high. It appeared in front of a dark tree so it was easy to spot. One thing I should probably add here is that most of our town is situated on ironstone ridges so that may add to the frequency of them? I can say that the storm doesn't need to be overhead for streamer activity and I find the best times to see them are when the storm cell is about a kilometer or so away, just as long as it's a very active cell.

I did do a few other frame out-takes to send to Michael Bath so I will show you here-

This image above was the very first couple of positive streamers I captured (at a low resolution unfortunately) in my front yard. The first frame is Russell shooting the storm in the distance. Frame 2 is the first streamer I ever found in footage (bottom left, in front of the jade plant), it is about a metre in front of us (Russ was standing beside me at this point), in the footage I saw the streamer as a pink flash and had asked Russ if his camera flash had gone off accidently, that was the point at which I knew you could see these strange characters! Frame 3 is a pretty large streamer with a step leader (the faint white article at the top) about 8metres away from us! I have to add here that in the actual video Russ had gone out to stand in the street (on my left) to get a clear shot of some nice cg's just as the streamer touched down! I'd hate to think what would've happened if it had arced together and grounded a bolt? The actual strike was some distance to our left and out of the shot. Frame 4 shows how far away the actual active part of the storm cell was.

 
This is the only actual frame by frame I have done. I wish I had pointed the camera down a little more? The streamers are numerous here in the bottom right corner of the first frame. The second frame is the distant strike with what I've termed as a "floating streamer" beside it. More streamers again in the third frame of the set (showing up red again in the bottom right corner), then a cg reminant in frame 4. All these frames are at 1/24th of a second and shot in my back yard. I have to apologise for the small size of these images. (I will try and grab a few larger ones for you when I regain my image editing software)

I have caught a recent positive streamer coming from a tree in the distance, possibly as far away as 50mtrs, with a nice step leader reaching towards it, no cg in sight though, only a small crawler? We will post the video's on ridgelightning.com as soon as we can : )

Best reguards,
Shauno.
Chasing Region: Lightning Ridge. N.S.W.
Website: www.ridgelightning.com

Offline Brad Hannon

  • Thunderbolt Tours Group
  • Stove pipe F3
  • ******
  • Posts: 427
  • Gender: Male
  • Colorado Beast - 2nd June 2005
Hello Shaun, i'm no expert on lightning (heck we get very little in Melbourne) so I base a lot of my comment on what I can see visually and stick mainly to reading more expert opinions for learning.  I must say though, image 2 of your second set of pics looks very clearly to me to be a 'ghost' reproduction of the actual CG.  I dont believe it is a 'floating streamer' as you have referred.  Its outline can be visually traced as the same shape as the CG but very slightly distorted (I imagine by the curvature of your lens) and less detailed.  If you visually lower the ghost over the CG you can see it fits the shape.  The other pics however, are intruiging.  I too have captured a reflection of a 4 secong pulsing CG in the USA in 2005.  I have no doubt it was a reflection in my video camera lens - possibly exacerbated by camera shake during the excitement!
hmmm June 2nd......

Offline Jimmy Deguara

  • Australian and Tornado Alley storm chaser
  • Administrator
  • Wedge tornado F5
  • *
  • Posts: 2,218
  • Gender: Male
  • Storm Chaser since 1993, Tornado Alley 2001
    • Australia Severe Weather
Brad,

Definitely an artifact in image number 2. As in one of the other images, the video camera finds it difficult to store information given the rapid rate of the lightning. I find it less susceptable in my current 3CCD video camera particularly with the appropriate manual settings.

Regards,

Jimmy Deguara
-------------------------------------
Australian Severe Weather
www.australiasevereweather.com

Australian Thunderbolt Tours
www.thunderbolttours.com

Phone  0408 020468  (International :  61  2  408 020468)

Offline Mike

  • Australian Severe Weather Moderators
  • Wedge tornado F5
  • *
  • Posts: 1,348
  • Gender: Male
  • Dry season here...boring!
    • http://StormscapesDarwin.com
Indeed Dave, just a query in case!  Have no replies in regards to digital video cameras.  Not my forte at the moment!  And agree wholly that Mother Nature can give us surprises that sometimes silence the experts!  It's just a fact of the life we live in.
Hope the answer comes re this interesting topic!
Mike
Darwin, Northern Territory.
StormscapesDarwin.com
Lightning Research 2010/14

Offline Shaun Galman

  • Stove pipe F3
  • *
  • Posts: 441
  • Gender: Male
    • ridgelightning.com
Hi Brad, I must agree with you about the cg artifact in the 2nd frame (I just call them floating streamers for the sake of description I guess?). I don't think it is a result of shaking in my footage though? I think Jimmy has nailed it with the explanation of the CCD capturing fast images and ghosting the cg with fish-eyed effect the lens produces. I have taken many 8second exposures in low light with the camera by hand believe it or not, mostly in those rare desperate times when the tripod wasn't accessable. I've been blessed with having extremely steady hands in a crisis, maybe I should've been a surgeon, the money would certainly be a little better lol?

I wish I could get access to a variety of different DV cameras with different lenses and settings just to test a few of these theories? That might be something to try if a group is together chasing a good storm somewhere? I have read a few scientific articles about streamers but theres still not a lot known. I guess it will become clear with time and study.

This is indeed a perplexing and very interesting topic to discuss! Next time your out shooting a good active cell, just keep an eye out for pink-ish/red flashes around you when the cell is active, I find keeping low to the ground and wearing a hat with a good ambient light blocking peak helps a bit. I'm sure if we pool some collective knowledge we can solve these issues in time : )

Cheers guys, take care.
Shauno.
Chasing Region: Lightning Ridge. N.S.W.
Website: www.ridgelightning.com

Offline Mike

  • Australian Severe Weather Moderators
  • Wedge tornado F5
  • *
  • Posts: 1,348
  • Gender: Male
  • Dry season here...boring!
    • http://StormscapesDarwin.com
My contact meteorologist friend in Melbourne says he's sitting on the fence!  He said it could be a reflection as we've stated, but he also thinks it could actually be a stroke eminating from the ground.  He said he's never seen anything like it!

Jury is hung!

Mike
Darwin, Northern Territory.
StormscapesDarwin.com
Lightning Research 2010/14

Offline Shaun Galman

  • Stove pipe F3
  • *
  • Posts: 441
  • Gender: Male
    • ridgelightning.com
Hi Mike,
If your contact meteorologist has any queries please pass my email add. on to him, its> [email protected] and I'll do my best to help with any info I can provide, however helpful it may be in understanding these oddities. I'm just going through a few other video's containing these "floating streamers" with no cg's in sight, mostly intra-cloud lightning activity, so it doesn't really seem like a CCD problem as yet? They are not very impressive ones though as they are mostly at the tops of the frames unlike the positive streamers that show up well at ground level.

I'm still on the fence myself until we can provide good enough evidence about the "floating streamers" I'd definately love to show you guys the footage, it's quite amazing! Russell (the website master) has gone away for a few weeks but we are searching for an easy to use use video up-load program for the site to get this footage up and running asap.

Can anyone help me in finding out what causes the pinkish/purple colouring of the positive streamers? Positive or negatively charged hydrogen or nitrogen molecules possibly? The info I've read doesn't really explain what they are made of, if they know at all yet?

Cheers and take care. (keep watching the skies and ground!)
Shauno
Chasing Region: Lightning Ridge. N.S.W.
Website: www.ridgelightning.com

Offline David C

  • Global Moderator
  • Barrel tornado F4
  • *
  • Posts: 643
  • Gender: Male
    • Thunderbolt Tours Storm Chasing Adventures
Lightning is always weird to me Jeff, so i'm not sure what to make of your photo. It is definitely rare irrespective of whether it is a CMOS artifact or genuine plasma. If you were shooting video it would be a different story - there is an overabundance of 'streamers' on video and the vast majority are artifact's.

Some notes and general blurb from me.
Reflection: As Jimmy eluded to, flipping and distorting it in my head (and with a few magic mushrroms to help it along haha), I too can see a similarity in shape with the main branch above... w/r to that coiled section.

Ionised air: I can't grasp the size of this 'thing' but this might be explained by the fact that I have not seen anything like it before. The lightning channel above looks 'closish'...1/2 km or less, but the filament looks to be extremely close to you just taking into account the foreground and overall photo......yet they appear to be of the same scale which is weird (or maybe the branch overhead was also very close).  It is very hard to understand why there would be a small contorted, isolated piece of bright conductive air there. Was it possibly connected to an object on the ground?... might be an example of a streamer preceding the main bolt that you spoke of. If that was the case and given that the upward streamers develop in response to the increase in the proximal electromagnetic field associated with the downward progression of the stepped leaders, why are they so rarely caught on film at night? Are they generally too dull against the ambient lighting and lightning?

I think the following image shows evidence of a streamer coming off some structure, that is the only decent one I have seen.


edit: The above image is copyright material of http://www.highvoltagephotography.com/
« Last Edit: 21 March 2007, 02:03:31 PM by David Croan »
Storm Chaser,
Thunderbolt Tours - USA & Australia Storm Chase Tours
www.thunderbolttours.com

Offline David C

  • Global Moderator
  • Barrel tornado F4
  • *
  • Posts: 643
  • Gender: Male
    • Thunderbolt Tours Storm Chasing Adventures
Can anyone help me in finding out what causes the pinkish/purple colouring of the positive streamers? Positive or negatively charged hydrogen or nitrogen molecules possibly? The info I've read doesn't really explain what they are made of, if they know at all yet?

Cheers and take care. (keep watching the skies and ground!)
Shauno

While you're on that Shaun, I find it interesting that lightning changes colour from blueish to pink hues and back and forth again repeatedly. The first and best example was a Texas Panhandle supercell (2002) that produced constant intra-cloud bolts. I was not there and only saw the footage and assumed it was the camera trying to auto-adjust the white balance or such like. I am pretty sure Jimmy actually commented at the time (on video) or at least indicated after the fact that the changes were visible at the time. I am talking two minutes of blue back to reds back to blues and so forth. It is fascinating stuff.
Storm Chaser,
Thunderbolt Tours - USA & Australia Storm Chase Tours
www.thunderbolttours.com

Offline Mike

  • Australian Severe Weather Moderators
  • Wedge tornado F5
  • *
  • Posts: 1,348
  • Gender: Male
  • Dry season here...boring!
    • http://StormscapesDarwin.com
Doesn't lightning change colour with the amount of moisture in the air?  I've seen many, may bolts in pink and purple due to being rain wrapped or near the curtain.  Nice bright white strokes seem to be outside the area of precip.  I've also seen purple/blue and pink bolts in intra-cloud stuff - could be a lot of things - illumination from other IC stuff, moonlight and of course the rain! 

Anyway that's another topic .....:)

Mike
Darwin, Northern Territory.
StormscapesDarwin.com
Lightning Research 2010/14