http://australiasevereweather.com/


From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:15:57 +0930
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ken,

i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you been
getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks obs.
whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked, thats
dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot on
the internet.

regards
richard modistach


----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


> David
> First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
anymore.
> Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer about
> 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
rather
> not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not the
> regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of days
> ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in 1998, out
> of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the 23rd on
> this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between 27-29,
> clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who would
find
> that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then there
would
> be others who would rush to random number generators in order to satisfy
> themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have to
> convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described it for
> anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
>
> As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the trouble
to
> read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the theory of
> lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we can
get
> into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement critics
> are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise themselves
> with where I am coming from, but because they think they are scientists
they
> assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this is
> left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from Copernicus
down.
> In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were the
> founding fathers of modern science - all would have described themselves
as
> astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there should be
> always room for new approaches and reform.
>
> I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist, whatever that
> is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology can
> adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years, watching the
> moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the subject
> makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who hasn't
> read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data that
> related to the moon.
>
> After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the Nodal
Cycle,
> the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does, nor is
> phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
behaviour
> other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet, completely
> cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
>
> I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on 'profound',
as
> interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I say
dry
> and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was a dry
> day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for someone
> then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to accept re
> August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before passing
> judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make mistakes -
> that's how we learn.
>
> It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over me in
> that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical data
and
> multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and have to
> earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
through
> the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me and
> it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers from
> the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more fantastic.
> best wishes
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > Ken,
> >
> > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken seriously,
> can
> > you please explain.
> >
> > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the phase of
> the
> > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> prediction
> > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this year
that
> > leads you to believe that the August through November period should only
> get
> > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
driest
> > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such period
on
> > record.
> >
> > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently enduring
> > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good scientific
> theory
> > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > Dr David Jones
> >
> > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > National Climate Centre
> > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: A Visibility Ques.
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:20:42 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello To All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I hope 
this question is not too foolish--since I'm not an aviator.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The AWS 
at Mena Airport, on the Visibility reading, maxes out at 10 Miles(16.6km). What 
is the significance of 10 miles? (As of a few years ago, the AWS now says 
"Missing" for the Visibility report and cloud heights).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Have a GREAT day/week&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:39:17 +1000
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Ken,

I agree with most of the sentiments you pass on here, certainly I would
consider a window of possible rain days an excellent forecast if it were
months ahead (which you do). As a meteorologist by training, I would like
to see the verifications that have been performed. This seems the only way
that you would be able to convince other meteorologists of the accuracy of
you're forecasts.
However the following statement concerns me
<snip>
This because I think in the past that was all
that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2
oclock
next friday!
<snip>
It is all that was required in the past. Nowadays the population want to
know if it will rain at 2 o'clock next Friday, because they will be doing
something. That is a problem which faces all forecasters these days - get
it right and no one remembers, get it wrong and everyone remembers.

Craig.


-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 10:22
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


Richard
I am satisfied with my hit rate, as must be others as my free ezine list
has
risen from nothing to over 800 in about a year. The thing is, evaluation is
rather subjective. An Auckland secondary school group(St Cuthberts)for a
science project studied me for three months and gave me 87%. Others have
said 75-80%. Only one group for some reason seem to find my accuracy is low
level - meteorologists. It all comes down to what someone calls a dry or
wet
day. I don't even like to identify days, only trends or 3-4 day windows. If
it comes down to a day then I ask for a 24hr potential error, which still
ends up as a 3-4 day window. This because I think in the past that was all
that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2
oclock
next friday! That's why I try to steer people toward my isobaric maps,
which
is what I first arrive at in my calculations. After that it comes down to
interpretation. When I say maps I mean those from the past that I come up
with and can point to and say will probably repeat on a given future day.
cheers
Ken
www.predictweather.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:45 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


> ken,
>
> i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you been
> getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks obs.
> whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked,
thats
> dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot on
> the internet.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > David
> > First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
> anymore.
> > Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer
about
> > 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
> rather
> > not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not the
> > regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of days
> > ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in 1998,
out
> > of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> > forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the 23rd
on
> > this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between
27-29,
> > clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who would
> find
> > that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then there
> would
> > be others who would rush to random number generators in order to
satisfy
> > themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have to
> > convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described it
for
> > anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
> >
> > As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the
trouble
> to
> > read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the theory
of
> > lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we can
> get
> > into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement
critics
> > are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise
themselves
> > with where I am coming from, but because they think they are scientists
> they
> > assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this is
> > left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from Copernicus
> down.
> > In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> > Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were
the
> > founding fathers of modern science - all would have described
themselves
> as
> > astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there should
be
> > always room for new approaches and reform.
> >
> > I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist, whatever
that
> > is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology
can
> > adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> > astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years, watching
the
> > moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the
subject
> > makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> > unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who
hasn't
> > read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data that
> > related to the moon.
> >
> > After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> > rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the Nodal
> Cycle,
> > the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does, nor
is
> > phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
> behaviour
> > other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet, completely
> > cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
> >
> > I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on
'profound',
> as
> > interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I say
> dry
> > and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was a
dry
> > day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for
someone
> > then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to accept
re
> > August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before
passing
> > judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make
mistakes -
> > that's how we learn.
> >
> > It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over me
in
> > that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical
data
> and
> > multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and have
to
> > earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
> through
> > the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me
and
> > it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers
from
> > the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more fantastic.
> > best wishes
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> > Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> > Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> >
> >
> > > Ken,
> > >
> > > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken
seriously,
> > can
> > > you please explain.
> > >
> > > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the phase
of
> > the
> > > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> > prediction
> > > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this year
> that
> > > leads you to believe that the August through November period should
only
> > get
> > > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
> driest
> > > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such
period
> on
> > > record.
> > >
> > > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently
enduring
> > > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good scientific
> > theory
> > > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr David Jones
> > >
> > > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > > National Climate Centre
> > > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
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> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:14:24 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Ken...

"Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me."

This is the crux of it.  Reverse is negative forward motion, true.  But
there is no such thing as negative heat or negative pressure.  Zero pressure
is a vacuum, you can't get less than that.  Zero heat is absolute zero, and
you can't get less heat than that.  There is no such thing as negative
excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).  But as we all know,
you can always go faster in either direction when it comes to motion.  We
have minus signs on the Celcius and farenheit temperature scales merely as a
result of the adoption of a convenient reference point, the freezing point
of water in the case of Celcius.

Regards,
John.

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:48 AM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


Hi again Richard
The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3 are
the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an emprical
sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity, despite
what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather models!
So everything may have to be redefined..
best
Ken



----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> hi ken,
>
> both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off topic
> people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
like
> a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to describe
> less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
hot,
> heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
there
> is
> > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the very
> > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
think
> > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
to
> > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> been
> > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> seems
> > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature we
> > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that powers
> the
> > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > cornwell.
> > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
under
> > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> valve
> > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
the
> > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
the
> > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
in
> > the
> > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as atmospheric
> > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum pressure
> > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > operated
> > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > considered
> > > a
> > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
just
> > as
> > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
reverse
> > > gear
> > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
gearing?
> > > > ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum, just
a
> > lack
> > > > of
> > > > > pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > richard modistach
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific thought,
> > which
> > > > has
> > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is that
> Cold
> > > is
> > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
object
> > > it's
> > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There is
> in
> > > fact
> > > > > no
> > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat ~
> > which
> > > > one
> > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > substance
> > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Ring
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look
> for
> > > > where
> > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> name
> > > it.
> > > > I
> > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> somewhere.
> > > Nor
> > > > > can
> > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > arguably
> > > > > even
> > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
with
> > the
> > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
all
> > due
> > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
those
> > > books
> > > > > has
> > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon
> has
> > a
> > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
Balling(Arizona
> > > State
> > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> temps.
> > > > Temps
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon
> and
> > > > > coolest
> > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
200
> > > > synodic
> > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of
> the
> > > moon
> > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > Significant
> > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also
> > heats
> > > > the
> > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
found
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This
> > range
> > > of
> > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> whole.
> > It
> > > > > shows
> > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon
> but
> > > the
> > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters
> > > Earth's
> > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > radiation.
> > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
source
> > > refs
> > > > I
> > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> whether
> > or
> > > > not
> > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> gets
> > > > colder
> > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
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> > > > > >  message.
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> > > > > >
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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: full moon
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:22:42 +1000
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Hi Ken,

I was not saying that clouds only occur on about 12 days per month, I was
saying that 60% of the time (18 days per month), clouds tend to dissipate at
sunset.  The  other times there is either no clouds to begin with or there
is cloud which remains after sundown.  In SEQ we would have clouds on around
90% of days throughout a year with a distinct drop during the winter/spring
months and a peak in summer/autumn, when it is rare to have a cloud free
day.

But you are right, a gut feel is not the same as hard figures, so recording
is now in progress.  Yesterday was 1/8 average cloud cover during the day,
and 0/8 at midnight (close to Q3 as you know).  And indeed the afternoon
cloud (low scattered Cu) dissipated at sunset.

Regards,
John.
>snip
-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 7:56 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: full moon


John
It is great to get your opinion. However, empirical obs is better. It may be
true where you are that 60% of nights are clearer but I suggest that figures
would make for better discussion. With figures one can discuss why they have
occurred - but with opinions less easy to discuss why they occurred. 60% -
is that high? Not too much over half. You are saying cloud occurs on about
12 days per month.
As to noticeability of clouds with or without a full moon, this whole
discussion started as an obs that full moon nights are noticeably very cold.
That implies no clouds, because clouds hold in the day's heat.
As to noting cloud cover at night in your diary, I would commend that and
suggest that where you are in SEQ between August 6-9 you can mark C for
cloudy over night, possible rain as well. If I am right it should add some
cred to lunar forecasting, because that could be 3 correct out of just those
12.
best wishes
Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: full moon


> I would have to say that as a general observation, it is usually much
> clearer at night than during the day.  In SEQ you can often watch the
clouds
> dissipate at sunset to leave a clear night and early morning, before
clouds
> again appear from about mid-morning onwards.  This phenomena is easily
> explainable in terms of solar heating & convection.  This would occur on
at
> least 60% of all days in SEQ in my estimation.
>
> I think it is also true to say that on a moonless night presence of clouds
> is usually not very noticeable, whereas clouds drifting across a full moon
> (or just a full moon with no clouds) is rather more noticeable.
>
> A moonlit night clearly implies no clouds, which correspondingly implies a
> colder night, thus frost is more likely.  So the last two folklore adages
> are IMHO self evident observations.
>
> With all due respect Ken, there is no point looking outside on full moon
> nights only, without also looking outside on all other nights to have
> someting to compare against.  I have only noted average daily cloud cover
in
> my observations notebook to date ~ which relates only to daytime hours,
but
> I will add in another column for cloud cover at midnight, and see how we
go
> over the next couple of years.
>
> John.
> >snip
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:34 PM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: full moon
>
>
> I can see that expectancy might play a part here. Best would be to look up
> what nights in the future the next full moons are going to be occurring
and
> circle them in the diary. Then go outside and see if you can see it on
those
> nights. (Easy to locate: full moon on the day of the full moon is exactly
> north at midnight. Or, if you're in the northern hemisphere, always
exactly
> south at midnight). That would eliminate the "sticking in the head" thing.
> But "moon eating clouds" is not the only reference in folklore. There's
also
> these:
> "The full moon grows fat on clouds".(Nautical)
> "The weather is generally clearer at the full than at other stages of the
> moon, but in winter the frost then is sometimes more intense."(Bacon)
> "Moonlit nights have the hardest frosts."
> "Clear moon: frost soon"(Scotland)
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Goler" <Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: full moon
>
>
> > On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Ken Ring wrote:
> >
> > > The evidence is that Full
> > > moon nights are mostly clearer whereas New moon nights are mostly
> > > cloudier.  if you look up any old weather folklore book you will find
a
> > > common old mariners' saying that "the full moon eats clouds" so I'd
say
> > > the effect has been noticed for yonks.
> >
> > Are there actual numbers to these statements, ie number of clear days
> > during full moon compared with new moon???
> >
> > Speaking for myself here, a clear night with a full moon always sticks
in
> > my head more so than a clear night without the moon.  Perhaps the
> > mariner's statement above is based more on a selective psychological
> > interpretation.  I mean who mentions anything about a clear sky with
just
> > stars (besides astronomers), eg lets see how many Victorians/NSW notice
> > the clear night tonight with the New Moon around the corner.  But put a
> > Full Moon in the scene 2 weeks later, and I'm sure people will notice
how
> > clear the night will be (provided there's a high sitting over them at
the
> > time).  And so, the conclusion that the moon clears skies will naturally
> > be arrived at.
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > --
> >
> > Robert A. Goler
> >
> > School of Mathematical Sciences
> > PO Box 28M
> > Monash University
> > Clayton, Vic 3800
> > Australia
> >
> > ph. +61 3 9905 4424
> > email: Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au
> > http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/
> >
> > --
> >
> >
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From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:49:01 +1000
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John,

<snip>
Zero heat is absolute zero, and you can't get less heat than that.  There
is no such thing as negative
excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).
<end snip>
Zero temperature is absolute zero i.e. 0 Kelvin. Heat is the energy which
flows between a system and it's environment due to a temperature difference
between the two.

The level of excitation of molecules only impacts on the temperature of a
body, not the heat.
A body at absolute zero would be a sink for heat, as it can only increase
its internal energy, but anything not at 0K can increase or decrease (i.e.
positive or negative changes) its heat content (again different from heat).

Be very careful about using heat and temperature. They are closely related,
but they are different physical quantities.

Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of John
Woodbridge
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 09:14
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


Hi Ken...

"Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me."

This is the crux of it.  Reverse is negative forward motion, true.  But
there is no such thing as negative heat or negative pressure.  Zero
pressure
is a vacuum, you can't get less than that.  Zero heat is absolute zero, and
you can't get less heat than that.  There is no such thing as negative
excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).  But as we all
know,
you can always go faster in either direction when it comes to motion.  We
have minus signs on the Celcius and farenheit temperature scales merely as
a
result of the adoption of a convenient reference point, the freezing point
of water in the case of Celcius.

Regards,
John.

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:48 AM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


Hi again Richard
The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3 are
the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and
reverse,
to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an emprical
sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity,
despite
what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather models!
So everything may have to be redefined..
best
Ken



----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> hi ken,
>
> both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off
topic
> people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
like
> a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to
describe
> less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
hot,
> heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
there
> is
> > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the very
> > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
think
> > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
to
> > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> been
> > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> seems
> > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature we
> > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that
powers
> the
> > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > cornwell.
> > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
under
> > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> valve
> > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
the
> > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
the
> > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
in
> > the
> > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as atmospheric
> > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum pressure
> > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > operated
> > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > considered
> > > a
> > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
just
> > as
> > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
reverse
> > > gear
> > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
gearing?
> > > > ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum, just
a
> > lack
> > > > of
> > > > > pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > richard modistach
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific
thought,
> > which
> > > > has
> > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is that
> Cold
> > > is
> > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
object
> > > it's
> > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There
is
> in
> > > fact
> > > > > no
> > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat ~
> > which
> > > > one
> > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > substance
> > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Ring
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look
> for
> > > > where
> > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> name
> > > it.
> > > > I
> > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> somewhere.
> > > Nor
> > > > > can
> > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > arguably
> > > > > even
> > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
with
> > the
> > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
all
> > due
> > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
those
> > > books
> > > > > has
> > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon
> has
> > a
> > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
Balling(Arizona
> > > State
> > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> temps.
> > > > Temps
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon
> and
> > > > > coolest
> > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
200
> > > > synodic
> > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of
> the
> > > moon
> > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > Significant
> > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also
> > heats
> > > > the
> > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
found
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This
> > range
> > > of
> > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> whole.
> > It
> > > > > shows
> > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon
> but
> > > the
> > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon
enters
> > > Earth's
> > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > radiation.
> > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
source
> > > refs
> > > > I
> > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> whether
> > or
> > > > not
> > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> gets
> > > > colder
> > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
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body
> of
> > > > your
> > > > > >  message.
> > > > >
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > >
>
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > your
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> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:21:42 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Richard
I am satisfied with my hit rate, as must be others as my free ezine list has
risen from nothing to over 800 in about a year. The thing is, evaluation is
rather subjective. An Auckland secondary school group(St Cuthberts)for a
science project studied me for three months and gave me 87%. Others have
said 75-80%. Only one group for some reason seem to find my accuracy is low
level - meteorologists. It all comes down to what someone calls a dry or wet
day. I don't even like to identify days, only trends or 3-4 day windows. If
it comes down to a day then I ask for a 24hr potential error, which still
ends up as a 3-4 day window. This because I think in the past that was all
that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2 oclock
next friday! That's why I try to steer people toward my isobaric maps, which
is what I first arrive at in my calculations. After that it comes down to
interpretation. When I say maps I mean those from the past that I come up
with and can point to and say will probably repeat on a given future day.
cheers
Ken
www.predictweather.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:45 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


> ken,
>
> i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you been
> getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks obs.
> whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked, thats
> dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot on
> the internet.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > David
> > First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
> anymore.
> > Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer
about
> > 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
> rather
> > not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not the
> > regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of days
> > ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in 1998,
out
> > of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> > forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the 23rd
on
> > this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between
27-29,
> > clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who would
> find
> > that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then there
> would
> > be others who would rush to random number generators in order to satisfy
> > themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have to
> > convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described it
for
> > anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
> >
> > As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the trouble
> to
> > read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the theory
of
> > lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we can
> get
> > into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement
critics
> > are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise
themselves
> > with where I am coming from, but because they think they are scientists
> they
> > assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this is
> > left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from Copernicus
> down.
> > In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> > Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were the
> > founding fathers of modern science - all would have described themselves
> as
> > astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there should be
> > always room for new approaches and reform.
> >
> > I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist, whatever
that
> > is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology can
> > adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> > astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years, watching
the
> > moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the
subject
> > makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> > unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who
hasn't
> > read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data that
> > related to the moon.
> >
> > After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> > rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the Nodal
> Cycle,
> > the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does, nor is
> > phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
> behaviour
> > other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet, completely
> > cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
> >
> > I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on
'profound',
> as
> > interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I say
> dry
> > and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was a
dry
> > day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for someone
> > then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to accept
re
> > August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before
passing
> > judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make mistakes -
> > that's how we learn.
> >
> > It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over me
in
> > that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical data
> and
> > multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and have
to
> > earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
> through
> > the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me and
> > it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers
from
> > the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more fantastic.
> > best wishes
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> > Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> > Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> >
> >
> > > Ken,
> > >
> > > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken
seriously,
> > can
> > > you please explain.
> > >
> > > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the phase
of
> > the
> > > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> > prediction
> > > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this year
> that
> > > leads you to believe that the August through November period should
only
> > get
> > > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
> driest
> > > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such
period
> on
> > > record.
> > >
> > > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently enduring
> > > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good scientific
> > theory
> > > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr David Jones
> > >
> > > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > > National Climate Centre
> > > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
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> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:47:52 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi again Richard
The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3 are
the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an emprical
sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity, despite
what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather models!
So everything may have to be redefined..
best
Ken



----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> hi ken,
>
> both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off topic
> people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
like
> a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to describe
> less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
hot,
> heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
there
> is
> > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the very
> > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
think
> > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
to
> > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> been
> > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> seems
> > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature we
> > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that powers
> the
> > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > cornwell.
> > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
under
> > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> valve
> > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
the
> > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
the
> > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
in
> > the
> > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as atmospheric
> > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum pressure
> > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > operated
> > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > considered
> > > a
> > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
just
> > as
> > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
reverse
> > > gear
> > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
gearing?
> > > > ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum, just
a
> > lack
> > > > of
> > > > > pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > richard modistach
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific thought,
> > which
> > > > has
> > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is that
> Cold
> > > is
> > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
object
> > > it's
> > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There is
> in
> > > fact
> > > > > no
> > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat ~
> > which
> > > > one
> > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > substance
> > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Ring
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look
> for
> > > > where
> > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> name
> > > it.
> > > > I
> > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> somewhere.
> > > Nor
> > > > > can
> > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > arguably
> > > > > even
> > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
with
> > the
> > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
all
> > due
> > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
those
> > > books
> > > > > has
> > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon
> has
> > a
> > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
Balling(Arizona
> > > State
> > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> temps.
> > > > Temps
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon
> and
> > > > > coolest
> > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
200
> > > > synodic
> > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of
> the
> > > moon
> > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > Significant
> > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also
> > heats
> > > > the
> > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
found
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This
> > range
> > > of
> > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> whole.
> > It
> > > > > shows
> > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon
> but
> > > the
> > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters
> > > Earth's
> > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > radiation.
> > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
source
> > > refs
> > > > I
> > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> whether
> > or
> > > > not
> > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> gets
> > > > colder
> > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
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body
> of
> > > > your
> > > > > >  message.
> > > > >
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >  message.
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>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
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> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: FUNNEL CLOUDS
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:07:47 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 01:09:35.0204 (UTC) FILETIME=[19951240:01C238F8]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>hi Arky.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some of the more dangerous tornadoes I have seen on 
video&nbsp; had no visible funnels at certain stages in their development, some 
rating as high as f 2, here in Australia I have also seen photo's of tornadoes 
with no visible condensation funnel.If the ground is rather dry then the first 
signs of touch down is dust&nbsp;or light ground material being visible, if 
there is enough dust the tornado can become very visible, but instead of the 
visible tube extending from the cloud there is an appearance of the tornado 
growing from the ground up to the cloud base, if the ground is rather moist then 
the funnel may remain almost invisible if a condensation funnel does not 
develop. One of the best severe weather books available is titled Spacious Skys 
by A Verkaik and R Scorer although out of print you may be able to pick up a 
copy 2nd hand or a left over in a book shop somewhere. regards Clyve 
Herbert.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>PS At the opposite end of the scale in regards to 
condensation funnels I have seen video of a tornado producing a condensation 
funnel from cloud base to ground in just over one second!.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net" title=dajapo at voltage.net>arky dave</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com" 
  title=aussie-weather at world.std.com>aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 31, 2002 4:33 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: FUNNEL CLOUDS</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G'Winter to All:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  My question would be: Would non-ground contacting funnel clouds produce much 
  damage? I ask this due to the fact I heard the funnels that hit Mena on NOV. 
  13, 1993, never actually touched the ground. I myself didn't ever see the 
  funnels(2 of them). From looking/piccing the damage in town, it it hard for me 
  to believe that they stayed aloft. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  Hopefully, SOON, I will get help to get a link constructed so my weather pics 
  can be viewed.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>WARM thoughts for 
  ALL!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  Yours&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
  Powell</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:10:34 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Richard
Yes, i know, and i hope you don't think I'm arguing just for the sake of it.
But I think there IS negative heat and negative pressure, that which we call
COLD and vacuum. Perhaps the trouble is in the reference line, which is
largely based on our own experience of our physical senses. For example,
what would a polar bear call hot? Probably zero degrees! If instead of
setting the useful base point at our own idea of zero we set it midway we
could then come closer to labelling cold as a force and not just defining it
as the absence of its opposite. What do you reckon?
ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> Hi Ken...
>
> "Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
> to me."
>
> This is the crux of it.  Reverse is negative forward motion, true.  But
> there is no such thing as negative heat or negative pressure.  Zero
pressure
> is a vacuum, you can't get less than that.  Zero heat is absolute zero,
and
> you can't get less heat than that.  There is no such thing as negative
> excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).  But as we all
know,
> you can always go faster in either direction when it comes to motion.  We
> have minus signs on the Celcius and farenheit temperature scales merely as
a
> result of the adoption of a convenient reference point, the freezing point
> of water in the case of Celcius.
>
> Regards,
> John.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:48 AM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> Hi again Richard
> The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3
are
> the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
> something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
> result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and
reverse,
> to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
> science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an
emprical
> sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
> excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
> excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
> to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity,
despite
> what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
> science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather
models!
> So everything may have to be redefined..
> best
> Ken
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
> Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > hi ken,
> >
> > both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> > pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off
topic
> > people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> > atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
> like
> > a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to
describe
> > less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
> hot,
> > heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
> >
> > regards
> > richard modistach
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
> there
> > is
> > > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the
very
> > > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
> think
> > > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
> to
> > > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> > been
> > > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> > seems
> > > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature
we
> > > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > > Ken
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that
powers
> > the
> > > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > > cornwell.
> > > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
> under
> > > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> > valve
> > > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
> the
> > > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
> the
> > > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
> in
> > > the
> > > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as
atmospheric
> > > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum
pressure
> > > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > > operated
> > > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > > richard modistach
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > > considered
> > > > a
> > > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
> just
> > > as
> > > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
> reverse
> > > > gear
> > > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
> gearing?
> > > > > ken
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum,
just
> a
> > > lack
> > > > > of
> > > > > > pressure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
> > > > > > richard modistach
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific
thought,
> > > which
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is
that
> > Cold
> > > > is
> > > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
> object
> > > > it's
> > > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There
is
> > in
> > > > fact
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat
~
> > > which
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > > substance
> > > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> > Ring
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We
look
> > for
> > > > > where
> > > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> > name
> > > > it.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> > somewhere.
> > > > Nor
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > > arguably
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
> all
> > > due
> > > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
> those
> > > > books
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full
moon
> > has
> > > a
> > > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
> Balling(Arizona
> > > > State
> > > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> > temps.
> > > > > Temps
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full
moon
> > and
> > > > > > coolest
> > > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
> 200
> > > > > synodic
> > > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase
of
> > the
> > > > moon
> > > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > > Significant
> > > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon
also
> > > heats
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
> found
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month.
This
> > > range
> > > > of
> > > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> > whole.
> > > It
> > > > > > shows
> > > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full
moon
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon
enters
> > > > Earth's
> > > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > > radiation.
> > > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
> source
> > > > refs
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> > whether
> > > or
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> > gets
> > > > > colder
> > > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
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> body
> > of
> > > > > your
> > > > > > >  message.
> > > > > >
> > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
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> > > > > >  message.
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> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
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> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
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> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
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>
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>

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From: "Damian" <damoreds at optusnet.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: July averages
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:53:56 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080>For my back garden in 
Sydney's Northern suburbs I recorded an average July&nbsp;maximum temperature of 
17.3 degrees.&nbsp;</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080>Average July minimum 
temperature of 2.7 degrees &amp; 21.35 mm of rain.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080>Check out the day to day 
statistics at:</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080><A 
href="http://www.geocities.com/weatherdamo/index.html">http://www.geocities.com/weatherdamo/index.html</A></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" 
color=#000080></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Chas & Helen Osborn" <hosborn at tassie.net.au>
To: "Aussie weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Strahan Weather
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:05:41 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Everyone</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rainfall for July is a Strahan&nbsp;record, 350mm 
about twice the average 180mm.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Visible flight rules minimum visibility in 
Australia is 5000m so visibility greater than 10km is of little 
concern.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Other countries have lower minimum visibility for 
visual flight eg Canada but I cannot remember what it is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With lower than 5000m visibility you must be 
capable of flying by instruments and carry the fuel required if flight to 
alternate aerodromes is required.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Strahan Tasmania</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

X-Originating-IP: [152.91.9.49]
From: "michael king" <mskikey at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:00:04 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 05:00:05.0219 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CE9E330:01C23918]
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<x-html>
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P><A href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate, here's a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENAU/c152??PI=44314'>Click Here</a><br></html>
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Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:49:40 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
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Good story.
So do you suppose some wag will suggest that Babinda should erect an 
eight metre golden brolly?

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "michael king" <mskikey at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:00:04 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P><A
> href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/n
> ews/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate,
> here's a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></div><br
> clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENAU/c152??PI=44314'>Click
> Here</a><br></html>
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>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
> -

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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:51:29 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As 
earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE newspaper. The 
world temps. are forecasts. Today,(Wednesday, July 31)&nbsp;the forecast for 
Auckland, NZ was partly cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW of 47F(8.3C). for Sydney, 
AUS was partly cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW of 48F(8.8C), for Hong Kong was 
thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW of 78F(25.5C).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My question is: 
Just where do these&nbsp;forecast&nbsp;figures come from? Do these figures come 
from ya'll or are they forecasted from the US? To simplify, who generates these 
forecast numbers?(how do they get into our newspaper?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just 
wondering&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
G'DAY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:07:17 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3]
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> 
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> 
> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C238F5.927B6AE0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:
>          As earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE =
> newspaper. The world temps. are forecasts. Today,(Wednesday, July 31) =
> the forecast for Auckland, NZ was partly cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW =
> of 47F(8.3C). for Sydney, AUS was partly cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW =
> of 48F(8.8C), for Hong Kong was thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW =
> of 78F(25.5C).
>           My question is: Just where do these forecast figures come =
> from? Do these figures come from ya'll or are they forecasted from the =
> US? To simplify, who generates these forecast numbers?(how do they get =
> into our newspaper?)

They're almost certainly from a US-based provider, probably based
on model output. These are better than they once were - you used to
see some which were downright embarrassing (I recall once seeing
one which forecast a max of 4 for Canberra in December) - but still
prone to inaccuracies, especially in areas where the grid which
the forecast is based on is too coarse to pick up local climate
variations.

On my recent trip to Canada I noticed that the 'Globe and Mail' 
(the major national Canadian newspaper) was carrying 4-day forecasts
for a number of international centres, including Sydney. On a 
couple of days the forecast was for a minimum of -1 or -2 (this was
in the middle of the cold spell in mid-July). I'd guess that this
was a model forecast for a 'Sydney basin' gridpoint (-1 or -2 would
have been realistic for a 'basin average' on the days when it was
getting down to -5 or -6 in the outer west, but was clearly extremely
unlikely for Observatory Hill).

Blair

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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:10:54 +1000
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Well...,

I just think the guy who used to fiddle the rainfall readings for Innisfail
has moved to Babinda.  Then again, maybe the guage is just a bit to
accessible to the boys staggering out of Babinda pub on a Staurday night...

John.
-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Phil Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:50 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate


Good story.
So do you suppose some wag will suggest that Babinda should erect an
eight metre golden brolly?

Phil

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From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:42:38 +1000 (EST)
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> 
> Well...,
> 
> I just think the guy who used to fiddle the rainfall readings for Innisfail
> has moved to Babinda.  Then again, maybe the guage is just a bit to
> accessible to the boys staggering out of Babinda pub on a Staurday night...
> 
> John.

From memory, which of Tully and Babinda is the wetter depends on 
averaging period (you get one answer if you use all years of record
and a different one if you use a standard 1961-90 normal).

Mind you, Bellenden Ker (and Topaz for that matter) leave both of 
them for dead.

I'm not going to lose too much sleep over this one (on the other
hand, if Cloncurry decides to erect a Big Thermometer then I might
have to go up there with a truck one night and relocate it to 
Oodnadatta where it belongs :-)

Blair
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X-Originating-IP: [203.221.136.103]
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 17:29:00 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 07:29:00.0721 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AE34A10:01C2392D]
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<x-flowed>
Hi every1,

Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...

There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal energy 
as has already been noted)

Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to 
another

Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the AVERAGE 
kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can have 
gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)

Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative momentum 
changes on a surface.

Just my thoughts.

The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more 
knowledgeable people to debate...

Kevin from Wycheproof.




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

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</x-flowed>
From: "Mr peter tristram" <peter.tri at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Strahan Weather
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:34:18 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Everyone</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rainfall for July is a Strahan&nbsp;record, 350mm 
  about twice the average 180mm.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>... and the opposite applies as you go north! Not 
  a single drop at Repton (or Coffs Harbour I'd say) - 0mm since 15th June and 
  then there was only 5mm. Some cloud lately though and rising humidity so the 
  frosts have taken a hike. If it doesn't rain much before the 'hot' weather 
  arrives we'll need those firefighters back from the States and a few 
  planeloads of Arky's mates too!! The old timers reckon it's about as bad as it 
  gets up here. I think the Tweed is even worse off.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peter</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Lightning
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:53:36 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some very weak flashes seen to the east of me and 
well away at 6.50pm. The clouds "puffed" up here the best I've seen for a long 
time, but not quite "puffy" enough :-( No rainfall as yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

X-Sender: vk3jed-1 at 202.12.87.169
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 19:27:55 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Melbourne Sunset
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 11:38 PM 31/07/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Evening all,
>
>A nice sunset in Melbourne tonight (a series of 5 images halfway down
>the page)
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com/winter02.htm

Very nice.  I had a spectacular sunset in the western suburbs, but still 
lacking a decent camera. :-(

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:13:32 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Arky, I agree with Blair that these must be from 
a US provider using model data and no local knowledge.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was considering putting up one of those weather 
banner things on my homepage, but the temperatures for my hometown of Wollongong 
in winter were always undercooked by 2 to 3C.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For example today Sydney reached 21C, about 4C 
higher than the quoted figure.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=dajapo at voltage.net href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net">arky dave</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:51 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: WX SITE INFO</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  As earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE newspaper. The 
  world temps. are forecasts. Today,(Wednesday, July 31)&nbsp;the forecast for 
  Auckland, NZ was partly cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW of 47F(8.3C). for 
  Sydney, AUS was partly cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW of 48F(8.8C), for Hong 
  Kong was thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW of 78F(25.5C).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My question is: 
  Just where do these&nbsp;forecast&nbsp;figures come from? Do these figures 
  come from ya'll or are they forecasted from the US? To simplify, who generates 
  these forecast numbers?(how do they get into our newspaper?)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just 
  wondering&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  G'DAY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:56:24 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Kevin and all
Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the bottom
of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics sites.
I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking about
heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the disagreement
is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of Thermodynamics
too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask Jeeves
and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.

1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If the
temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
(Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and cooling
have equal mathematical importance here..)

2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
(But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the rules
of English the cold did move too. No?).

3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as the
opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai which
just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean anything.
If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So not
much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the degree
of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
cheers
Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


> Hi every1,
>
> Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
>
> There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal energy
> as has already been noted)
>
> Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> another
>
> Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
AVERAGE
> kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
have
> gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
>
> Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative momentum
> changes on a surface.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> knowledgeable people to debate...
>
> Kevin from Wycheproof.
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
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>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [203.220.168.243]
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:56:40 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 11:56:40.0592 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F512100:01C23952]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi all,

I wasn't gonna bother with this, since semantically it's picking gnat-shit 
out of pepper, but...

using a dictionary definition for a physical quantity is fraught with 
danger. If I look up heat in my dictionary I might also find that it means 
estrous etc... the term "heat" has been misused (even in the scientific 
community) for many years. It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy - any 
decent physics text will tell you so...

also...using ancient linguistic etymology is similarly fraught with peril. 
i.e. do you know the source of the word "lunatic"?

finally (for now), the fact that you don't like the laws of thermodynamics 
is neither here nor there. If for instance I decided that I didn't like 
Newton's Laws it wouldn't count one iota if I jumped off the top of the 
Rialto in defiance...if you have a serious problem with the physics offer an 
alternative set of precepts, don't just click your fingers and pretend to be 
invisible..

Kevin from Wycheproof (somewhere on THIS planet)


>From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:56:24 +1200
>
>Hi Kevin and all
>Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the bottom
>of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics sites.
>I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking about
>heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the disagreement
>is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of 
>Thermodynamics
>too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask Jeeves
>and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.
>
>1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
>TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
>distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
>dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If the
>temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
>(Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and 
>cooling
>have equal mathematical importance here..)
>
>2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
>(But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
>moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the rules
>of English the cold did move too. No?).
>
>3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
>meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
>chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
>increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
>between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as the
>opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai which
>just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean 
>anything.
>If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So not
>much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the 
>degree
>of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
>hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
>So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
>cheers
>Ken
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
>Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> > Hi every1,
> >
> > Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
> >
> > There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal 
>energy
> > as has already been noted)
> >
> > Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> > another
> >
> > Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
>AVERAGE
> > kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
>have
> > gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
> >
> > Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative 
>momentum
> > changes on a surface.
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> > The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> > knowledgeable people to debate...
> >
> > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
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</x-flowed>
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:07:55 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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Evening all,

Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....

Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!

Jane

--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------






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Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:24:16 +1000
From: Matthew Smith <tornado at cnn.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U)
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To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
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not just one flash? all 2 of them hey ? go melbourne storms in winter :P

Matt

Jane ONeill wrote:

> Evening all,
>
> Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
> not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
> Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
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Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:25:15 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Perhaps hail??

Jimmy Deguara

At 10:07 PM 1/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Evening all,
>
>Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
>not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
>Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
>
>Jane
>
>--------------------------------
>Jane ONeill - Melbourne
>cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
>Melbourne Storm Chasers
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
>ASWA - Victoria
>http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>--------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

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</x-flowed>
From: David Findlay <david at davsoft.com.au>
Organization: Davsoft
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:29:14 +1000
User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:07, Jane ONeill entered data into a CPU register that 
inidcated:
> Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
> not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
> Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!

You haven't got green coloured glasses on have you? :-P

Photos?

David

- -- 

- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCC d- s:-- a--- C++ UL++++ P+++ L+++ E- W++ N++ o- K- w--
O-- M+ V-- PS PE Y+ PGP+++ t+ 5-- X-- R- tv- b++ DI++++ D---
G e h! !r y-
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE9SSmaZOfFgbBAbXARAuhtAJ9WMN7tQA9YIVolhUuNiEEeMhVtPQCfXvAZ
UdpTnk06fq9fhY3G5PFbCBE=
=NCzk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: David Findlay <david at davsoft.com.au>
Organization: Davsoft
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:29:14 +1000
User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:07, Jane ONeill entered data into a CPU register that 
inidcated:
> Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
> not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
> Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!

You haven't got green coloured glasses on have you? :-P

Photos?

David

- -- 

- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCC d- s:-- a--- C++ UL++++ P+++ L+++ E- W++ N++ o- K- w--
O-- M+ V-- PS PE Y+ PGP+++ t+ 5-- X-- R- tv- b++ DI++++ D---
G e h! !r y-
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE9SSmaZOfFgbBAbXARAuhtAJ9WMN7tQA9YIVolhUuNiEEeMhVtPQCfXvAZ
UdpTnk06fq9fhY3G5PFbCBE=
=NCzk
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:37:55 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: aus-wx: Short chase, Melbourne Aug 1
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<x-flowed>
Just got back from a short (approx 40 mins) chase.  Was alerted to 
approaching storms by the gang on #weather, and from the radar, anticipated 
it would be a short drive to the western suburbs.  Experience, and the 
direction the cell was moving suggested that it would hit Maidstone pretty 
hard.

I headed for the Western Ring Rd, with the expectation of passing just 
behind the storm, and encountered light rain in East Keilor, which became 
heavy by the time I crossed the Maribyrnong River to Nth Sunshine.  Another 
minute or so later, the rain turned to hail, and the visibility dropped to 
100m.  I was forced to stop just past the Furlong Rd on ramp for 5 minutes, 
with 50m visibility from 0.5cm hail (no wonder the radar was red ;) 
).  Lightning was CCs every 10 seconds or so, mostly high up (and rather 
difficult to see at this stage :) ).  The hail cleared after about 5 
minutes, and the rain rapidly eased afterwards.

I turned off the freeway at Ballarat Rd, and headed east to follow the 
storm back towards the city, staying on the rear flank.  Lots of impressive 
CCs every several seconds (I need a decent camera :( ).  Turned off at 
Maidstone to return home, and encountered hail drifts a few cm 
deep.  Driving was rather dangerous and one had to keep below 20 km/h to 
stay on the road (I was right in that Maidstone would cop this one :) ).

On the return trip, more hail was sighted on the ground in Avondale 
Heights, though nowhere near as much as in Maidstone.

No pics, and I wasn't able to stream audio from the radio live (that would 
have been a hoot as well) :(   Looking for a new streaming audio provider. :(





73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
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Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:40:01 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 10:07 PM 1/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Evening all,
>
>Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
>not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
>Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!

Was "normal" white on the western suburbs.  Speaking of green, Macca, did 
you ever get those green lightning pics from March sorted out?

I just posted a report on my minor chase. :-)

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Debbie Parker" <debp at rie.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:44:32 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
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Woo Hoo!!
Currently hailing in Boronia (Melbourne) - only 1-2 mm at present but it
started off with some of the biggest raindrops I've ever seen.

Debbie

----- Original Message -----
From: Jane ONeill <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: Aussie-wx <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne


> Evening all,
>
> Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
> not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
> Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:55:56 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
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<x-flowed>
At 10:25 PM 1/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Perhaps hail??

Quite possibly.  I encountered the cell in Nth Sunshine and precipitation 
was mostly hail at that stage.  On the radar, it looked like it 
re-intensified over the eastern suburbs and the radar was showing solid 
red, somewhat more red than my earlier encounter.

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Sea sick lightning Mel.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:42:25 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was just arriving at Flinders st station a few 
minutes before a small but intense cell moved across the CBD at around 10pm. 
this cell was preceded by a nice outflow cloud line with a bit of a curve to it, 
but what followed was something I had never seen before, lightning was rather 
unusual, very short and sharp discharges and very bright, but the astounding 
aspect was the colour, a definite green, not just one but most of the discharges 
around the CBD were green. The green colour was very vivid so how do we explain 
this....was the lightning being refracted by the falling precipitation? or was 
the lightning very hot! (refer to colour of the stars i.e. very hot green, hot 
blue,&nbsp; not so hot white and so on). Anyway I think I will spend most of the 
night checking any other occurrence of such a phenomena.....regards Clyve 
H.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Sea sick lightning Mel.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:42:25 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was just arriving at Flinders st station a few 
minutes before a small but intense cell moved across the CBD at around 10pm. 
this cell was preceded by a nice outflow cloud line with a bit of a curve to it, 
but what followed was something I had never seen before, lightning was rather 
unusual, very short and sharp discharges and very bright, but the astounding 
aspect was the colour, a definite green, not just one but most of the discharges 
around the CBD were green. The green colour was very vivid so how do we explain 
this....was the lightning being refracted by the falling precipitation? or was 
the lightning very hot! (refer to colour of the stars i.e. very hot green, hot 
blue,&nbsp; not so hot white and so on). Anyway I think I will spend most of the 
night checking any other occurrence of such a phenomena.....regards Clyve 
H.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:52:11 +1000
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Hi Kevin,

Curiously when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford) it
is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >
Physics: Heat seen as a form of energy arising from the random motion of the
molecules of bodies.

Looking in my venerable tertiary Physics text (Resnick & Halliday) with
regard to Heat and the 1st Law of thermodynamics, it defines Heat "as a form
of energy" and as such, it is quite clearly a noun.  It also goes on to
mention that the transfer of energy arising from a temperature difference
between adjacent parts of a body is called "heat conduction", which once
again infers Heat as a thing, i.e., a noun.

Heat is not the same thing as temperature, because different materials
require a different amount of heat (i.e, energy) to raise them to the same
temperature, from which the concept of "specific heat" arises as a method to
measure this property of a material.

So I stand by my original comment, i.e., a body which contains no heat at
all must be at absolute zero.

Regards,
John W.
>snip
...
using a dictionary definition for a physical quantity is fraught with
danger. If I look up heat in my dictionary I might also find that it means
estrous etc... the term "heat" has been misused (even in the scientific
community) for many years. It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy - any
decent physics text will tell you so...
...

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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:52:11 +1000
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Hi Kevin,

Curiously when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford) it
is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >
Physics: Heat seen as a form of energy arising from the random motion of the
molecules of bodies.

Looking in my venerable tertiary Physics text (Resnick & Halliday) with
regard to Heat and the 1st Law of thermodynamics, it defines Heat "as a form
of energy" and as such, it is quite clearly a noun.  It also goes on to
mention that the transfer of energy arising from a temperature difference
between adjacent parts of a body is called "heat conduction", which once
again infers Heat as a thing, i.e., a noun.

Heat is not the same thing as temperature, because different materials
require a different amount of heat (i.e, energy) to raise them to the same
temperature, from which the concept of "specific heat" arises as a method to
measure this property of a material.

So I stand by my original comment, i.e., a body which contains no heat at
all must be at absolute zero.

Regards,
John W.
>snip
...
using a dictionary definition for a physical quantity is fraught with
danger. If I look up heat in my dictionary I might also find that it means
estrous etc... the term "heat" has been misused (even in the scientific
community) for many years. It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy - any
decent physics text will tell you so...
...

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:49:47 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
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High at HKO today was 31.5C minimum was 25.8 and there hasn't been a sign 
of a thunderstorm although they have been non-stop all week up to 
yesterday.  K-Index was 38 (85% possibility of thunderstorms) all day and 
dropped to 36 (82% possibility) tonight. HKO still has a temp of 29.4C RH 
81% giving a Heat Index of 36.1C.
I agree with Blair and Michael - someone in the States does the figures 
and while they are a lot better now than they used to be they still often 
miss by quite a bit.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:13:32 +1000
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO

> Hi Arky, I agree with Blair that these must be from a US provider using
> model data and no local knowledge.
> 
> I was considering putting up one of those weather banner things on my
> homepage, but the temperatures for my hometown of Wollongong in winter
> were always undercooked by 2 to 3C.
> 
> For example today Sydney reached 21C, about 4C higher than the quoted
> figure.
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: arky dave 
>   To: aussie-weather at world.std.com 
>   Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:51 PM
>   Subject: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
> 
> 
>   Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:
>            As earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS
> DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE newspaper. The world temps. are forecasts.
> Today,(Wednesday, July 31) the forecast for Auckland, NZ was partly
> cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW of 47F(8.3C). for Sydney, AUS was partly
> cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW of 48F(8.8C), for Hong Kong was
> thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW of 78F(25.5C).
>             My question is: Just where do these forecast figures come
> from? Do these figures come from ya'll or are they forecasted from the
> US? To simplify, who generates these forecast numbers?(how do they get
> into our newspaper?)
>   Just wondering          G'DAY         David Powell
> 

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: JULY 2002
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:41:50 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Happy Day to All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Weather for Mena, Arkansas for July, 2002(figures 
are valid for July 7 through July 31).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Avg. High:89.2F(31.7C)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Avg. Low:69.0F(20.5C)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; High:93F(33.8C) July 8, 21, 22, 23, 
26, 31</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Low:62F(16.6C) July 
15</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Rain for July:5.55IN(140.9mm)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT 
face=Verdana>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
(+0.65IN/+16.5mm)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Verdana>Rain for Year:41.55IN(1,055.3mm)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT 
face=Verdana>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
(+7.05IN/+179.0mm)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Enjoy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Wishing ALL a Wonderful 
August</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 06:54:38 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Not trying to be funny here but could it be because of smog or something
similar in the air that was distorting the colour?
Anyway would've loved to have seen it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:07 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne


> Evening all,
>
> Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
> not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
> Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>


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From: jindivik at optusnet.com.au
X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.411 (Entity 5.404)
To: "aussie-weather  at  world . std . com" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:36:12 +1000
Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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That's a pretty good theory Bussy.

The atmosphere has a lot to do with the appearance of lightning, the further from 
lightning you are, the more it appears red.  In most of my lightning photo's, 
because of the distance from the lightning I am it's shade varies from white to a 
dull red, similar to a bushfire moon.

Can't think of what would make it go green though.  I myself have seen almost 
electric blue lighting flashes on the back end of a receding storm going over my 
place.

Chris



> Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au> wrote:
> 
> Not trying to be funny here but could it be because of smog or
> something
> similar in the air that was distorting the colour?
> Anyway would've loved to have seen it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:07 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
> 
> 
> > Evening all,
> >
> > Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green
> lightning -
> > not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
> >
> > Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
> >
> > Jane
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > ASWA - Victoria
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > --------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
> of your
> >  message.
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> 
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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> -+
> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au----------------------------
> --
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> -+
> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au----------------------------
> --
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From: jindivik at optusnet.com.au
X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.411 (Entity 5.404)
To: "aussie-weather  at  world . std . com" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 07:36:12 +1000
Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


That's a pretty good theory Bussy.

The atmosphere has a lot to do with the appearance of lightning, the further from 
lightning you are, the more it appears red.  In most of my lightning photo's, 
because of the distance from the lightning I am it's shade varies from white to a 
dull red, similar to a bushfire moon.

Can't think of what would make it go green though.  I myself have seen almost 
electric blue lighting flashes on the back end of a receding storm going over my 
place.

Chris



> Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au> wrote:
> 
> Not trying to be funny here but could it be because of smog or
> something
> similar in the air that was distorting the colour?
> Anyway would've loved to have seen it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:07 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
> 
> 
> > Evening all,
> >
> > Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green
> lightning -
> > not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
> >
> > Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
> >
> > Jane
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > ASWA - Victoria
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > --------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
> of your
> >  message.
> > 
> >
> 
> 
> 
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
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> -+
> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au----------------------------
> --
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> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au----------------------------
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Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:45:07 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; I)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Ken,

As many people have said, cold doesn't move.  "Coldness" and "hotness"
is relative to its surroundings.  If I put my hand in the fridge, it's
cold.  If I put an icecube into the fridge, then relative to the ice
then the fridge will be warm.

Heat is simply energy, and what you find is that heat flows to other
objects, but cold *does not*.  The reason why it seems that coldness
flows is that since one object is giving off heat to the other object
with less heat, then obviously the original object is going to lose heat
and subsequently become cooler.  

AC

Ken Ring wrote:
> 
> >It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy - any
> >decent physics text will tell you so...
> 
> >when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford) it
> > is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >
> 
> hee hee..see what I mean? Even a difference between authorities. Heat is NOT
> a cut and dried concept.. Just because a physics book says something doesn't
> make it so. You can find plenty that believe in global warming too! I would
> agree with John that a body that contains no heat, (noun or verb) would be
> at absolute zero, and I would add that a body that contained no cold, noun
> or verb would be at evaporation point. To my mind we are talking about
> temperature shifts between two points, that is all, and both points would
> have to be as real as each other. Consequently the transfer can go both
> ways. The only difference is that going one way requires the input of energy
> and going the other accepts the output of energy. But answer me this: if
> cold
> doesn't fall then how does the snow get to the ground?
> Ken
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:52 AM
> Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
> 
> > Hi Kevin,
> >
> > Curiously when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford)
> it
> > is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >
> > Physics: Heat seen as a form of energy arising from the random motion of
> the
> > molecules of bodies.
> >
> > Looking in my venerable tertiary Physics text (Resnick & Halliday) with
> > regard to Heat and the 1st Law of thermodynamics, it defines Heat "as a
> form
> > of energy" and as such, it is quite clearly a noun.  It also goes on to
> > mention that the transfer of energy arising from a temperature difference
> > between adjacent parts of a body is called "heat conduction", which once
> > again infers Heat as a thing, i.e., a noun.
> >
> > Heat is not the same thing as temperature, because different materials
> > require a different amount of heat (i.e, energy) to raise them to the same
> > temperature, from which the concept of "specific heat" arises as a method
> to
> > measure this property of a material.
> >
> > So I stand by my original comment, i.e., a body which contains no heat at
> > all must be at absolute zero.
> >
> > Regards,
> > John W.
> > >snip
> > ...
> > using a dictionary definition for a physical quantity is fraught with
> > danger. If I look up heat in my dictionary I might also find that it means
> > estrous etc... the term "heat" has been misused (even in the scientific
> > community) for many years. It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy -
> any
> > decent physics text will tell you so...
> > ...
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> 
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-- 
Anthony Cornelius
Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the 
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:59:25 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


>It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy - any
>decent physics text will tell you so...

>when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford) it
> is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >

hee hee..see what I mean? Even a difference between authorities. Heat is NOT
a cut and dried concept.. Just because a physics book says something doesn't
make it so. You can find plenty that believe in global warming too! I would
agree with John that a body that contains no heat, (noun or verb) would be
at absolute zero, and I would add that a body that contained no cold, noun
or verb would be at evaporation point. To my mind we are talking about
temperature shifts between two points, that is all, and both points would
have to be as real as each other. Consequently the transfer can go both
ways. The only difference is that going one way requires the input of energy
and going the other accepts the output of energy. But answer me this: if
cold
doesn't fall then how does the snow get to the ground?
Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:52 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


> Hi Kevin,
>
> Curiously when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford)
it
> is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >
> Physics: Heat seen as a form of energy arising from the random motion of
the
> molecules of bodies.
>
> Looking in my venerable tertiary Physics text (Resnick & Halliday) with
> regard to Heat and the 1st Law of thermodynamics, it defines Heat "as a
form
> of energy" and as such, it is quite clearly a noun.  It also goes on to
> mention that the transfer of energy arising from a temperature difference
> between adjacent parts of a body is called "heat conduction", which once
> again infers Heat as a thing, i.e., a noun.
>
> Heat is not the same thing as temperature, because different materials
> require a different amount of heat (i.e, energy) to raise them to the same
> temperature, from which the concept of "specific heat" arises as a method
to
> measure this property of a material.
>
> So I stand by my original comment, i.e., a body which contains no heat at
> all must be at absolute zero.
>
> Regards,
> John W.
> >snip
> ...
> using a dictionary definition for a physical quantity is fraught with
> danger. If I look up heat in my dictionary I might also find that it means
> estrous etc... the term "heat" has been misused (even in the scientific
> community) for many years. It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy -
any
> decent physics text will tell you so...
> ...
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 09:19:10 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Possible TC headed for Hong Kong
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.3
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The monsoon gyre in the Philippine Sea seems to be consolidating into a 
Tropical Depression (or two or three) and headed at the moment in this 
general direction.
PAGASA has named it LAGALAG and is issuing warnings for the northern 
Philippines and predicts it will move into the Taiwan strait.
Motion in satpics would suggest it might even come this way.
I have added a collection of suitable links to my page at 
http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm for those who would like to follow 
it.

Meanwhile I would have loved to have seen the green lightning in 
Melbourne.  Don't tell me even thunderstorms down there are jumping on 
the "Environmentally Friendly" bandwagon!

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "NANDINA" <nandina at alphalink.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 11:27:13 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
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At the risk of annoying some 'strictly weather' people, I would like to make
an observation here.  I am 100% with Ken when he says he supports the
push-pull theory.  But this is a phenomenon that occurs not only in science,
but in every day life.  Every intervention in the natural scheme of things
will produce a reward and a cost.  (Yeah - I know that's a major
generalization.  However I'm not on about being scientific, as much as I am
concerned with the realistic.) And don't overlook the fact that without
'cold' there is no 'heat' - our universe is filled with opposites - it's the
way we understand concepts.  If there was no winter, how would we understand
summer?  Long ago the question was put - If there was no war, how can we
understand peace?  It took me a long time to come to terms with this - the
speaker was not advocating war - rather the statement was drawn from
knowledge of records gathered through the ages.  Just as weather patterns
are associated with foregone data.
I'm not sure that I'm expressing my thoughts clearly, but needed to join
this conversation.
I have for some years matched my physical health with rises and falls in
barometric pressure, as I am sure, have many others.
My mother, sadly deceased, so I cannot quiz her, used the moon for
predictions of all kinds.
We just have not leaned to use all of the natural as well as the scientific,
and including the historic data and events out there.  Discussion of
alternative methods is healthy and promotes lateral thinking.  And Ken -
good for you!
Cheers,

Nandina

 <major snip>


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [203.54.24.82]
From: "Catherine Elliott" <faerinelda at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:54:02 +1000
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<x-flowed>
Hi all,

Still learning much from your posts and have 2 questions:-
1. Can thunder exist without lightning (I heard it but saw nothing)
&
2. Is Australia still in drought if so what would it take to get out of it.

Thank you for answering my questions happy weather watching all.

regards,
cath

P.S  my mother said that it was the BOMs fault for all the wind we have been 
having because they draw the lines on the map and she requested that you 
stop drawing the lines on the map :)

P.P.S Shes not daft just Brittish and has its humour



_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

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</x-flowed>
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:56:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Hart <dhart at theworld.com>
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From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:49:03 +1000
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In-Reply-To: <000f01c23952$76df4380$1d4e25ca at ken>
Importance: Normal

You're right Ken, it is a word quibble.

As stated earlier, *heat* is the energy which flows between a system and
it's environment due to a temperature difference between the two. In
mathematical terms...

Heat (Q) = C (T(final) - T(initial))

C is the specific heat of a material. T(final) is the final temperature of
a body after a change, T(initial) is the temperature of the body before the
change.
*Heat* is a physical quantity that is easily measured. There is no
equivalent for the concept of 'cold'.
The *temperature* of a body is a measure of the *internal energy* of that
body. A change in temperature can only be brought about if a body either
transfers heat, does work or has work done on it.
Heat can be positive negative or zero. Temperature (and hence internal
energy) can only be positive or zero (and even that is debatable). The
concept of internal energy is probably more applicable to Ken's argument
rather than heat.

The concepts of heat, temperature and internal energy are intertwined - and
easily confused! That is all that has happened here.

Craig



-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 21:56
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


Hi Kevin and all
Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the bottom
of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics sites.
I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking about
heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the disagreement
is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of
Thermodynamics
too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask Jeeves
and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.

1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If the
temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
(Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and
cooling
have equal mathematical importance here..)

2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
(But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the rules
of English the cold did move too. No?).

3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as the
opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai which
just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean
anything.
If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So not
much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the
degree
of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
cheers
Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


> Hi every1,
>
> Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
>
> There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal
energy
> as has already been noted)
>
> Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> another
>
> Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
AVERAGE
> kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
have
> gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
>
> Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative
momentum
> changes on a surface.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> knowledgeable people to debate...
>
> Kevin from Wycheproof.
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Possible TC headed for Hong Kong
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:09:31 +1000
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Hi Phil.
The convective line to the southeast of Hong Kong seems a bit detached
although the convective area on the southern most point is better, also a
convective area off Indonesia seems to have an organised region with
moderate upper outflow! not bad for August. regards Clyve H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: aus-wx: Possible TC headed for Hong Kong


> The monsoon gyre in the Philippine Sea seems to be consolidating into a
> Tropical Depression (or two or three) and headed at the moment in this
> general direction.
> PAGASA has named it LAGALAG and is issuing warnings for the northern
> Philippines and predicts it will move into the Taiwan strait.
> Motion in satpics would suggest it might even come this way.
> I have added a collection of suitable links to my page at
> http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm for those who would like to follow
> it.
>
> Meanwhile I would have loved to have seen the green lightning in
> Melbourne.  Don't tell me even thunderstorms down there are jumping on
> the "Environmentally Friendly" bandwagon!
>
> Phil
> <><
>
> International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
> Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
> Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
>
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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:07:44 +1000
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Hi Ken,

I suggest that snow getting to ground has rather a lot to do with gravity
and actually nothing to do with how cold it is.  Likewise for an air parcel,
as it cools it becomes denser (shrinks) and hence 'heavier' than the
surrounding air parcels and thus sinks, once again thanks to gravity.
Warmer air parcels expand and become less dense than surrounding air parcels
and hence rise.  If it were possible to somehow enclose and constrain the
the air parcel in question, so that it could not shrink or expand with
temperature... then it would neither rise nor fall no matter how hot or
cold.

Regards,
John.
>snip
-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 10:59 AM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


>It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy - any
>decent physics text will tell you so...

>when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford) it
> is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >

hee hee..see what I mean? Even a difference between authorities. Heat is NOT
a cut and dried concept.. Just because a physics book says something doesn't
make it so. You can find plenty that believe in global warming too! I would
agree with John that a body that contains no heat, (noun or verb) would be
at absolute zero, and I would add that a body that contained no cold, noun
or verb would be at evaporation point. To my mind we are talking about
temperature shifts between two points, that is all, and both points would
have to be as real as each other. Consequently the transfer can go both
ways. The only difference is that going one way requires the input of energy
and going the other accepts the output of energy. But answer me this: if
cold
doesn't fall then how does the snow get to the ground?
Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:52 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


> Hi Kevin,
>
> Curiously when I look up the word Heat in my dictionary (Concise Oxford)
it
> is a noun and defined thus: The quality of being hot; high temperature >
> Physics: Heat seen as a form of energy arising from the random motion of
the
> molecules of bodies.
>
> Looking in my venerable tertiary Physics text (Resnick & Halliday) with
> regard to Heat and the 1st Law of thermodynamics, it defines Heat "as a
form
> of energy" and as such, it is quite clearly a noun.  It also goes on to
> mention that the transfer of energy arising from a temperature difference
> between adjacent parts of a body is called "heat conduction", which once
> again infers Heat as a thing, i.e., a noun.
>
> Heat is not the same thing as temperature, because different materials
> require a different amount of heat (i.e, energy) to raise them to the same
> temperature, from which the concept of "specific heat" arises as a method
to
> measure this property of a material.
>
> So I stand by my original comment, i.e., a body which contains no heat at
> all must be at absolute zero.
>
> Regards,
> John W.
> >snip
> ...
> using a dictionary definition for a physical quantity is fraught with
> danger. If I look up heat in my dictionary I might also find that it means
> estrous etc... the term "heat" has been misused (even in the scientific
> community) for many years. It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy -
any
> decent physics text will tell you so...
> ...
>
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X-Originating-IP: [144.132.18.241]
From: "Liam Domanski" <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:17:25 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2002 05:17:25.0640 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3774880:01C239E3]
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<x-flowed>
Thunder is a product of lightning, and cannot exist by itself.

The super hot lightning bolt heats the air surrounding it to extreme temps.  
This air then rapidly expands away in all directions at the speed of sound, 
causing a pressure wave to be created.

The human ear percieves this pressure wave as sound.  When you hear a clap 
of thunder, you are not only hearing the direct result of that pressure 
wave, but also reflections of it from objects such at the ground, buildings, 
hills, trees etc.

This gives the rumbling effect.



Liam


>From: "Catherine Elliott" <faerinelda at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
>Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:54:02 +1000
>
>Hi all,
>
>Still learning much from your posts and have 2 questions:-
>1. Can thunder exist without lightning (I heard it but saw nothing)
>&
>2. Is Australia still in drought if so what would it take to get out of it.
>
>Thank you for answering my questions happy weather watching all.
>
>regards,
>cath
>
>P.S  my mother said that it was the BOMs fault for all the wind we have 
>been having because they draw the lines on the map and she requested that 
>you stop drawing the lines on the map :)
>
>P.P.S Shes not daft just Brittish and has its humour
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
>http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
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_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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</x-flowed>
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 14:55:02 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: 16W forming SE of HK
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As attached.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 14:39:17 +0800
Subject: 16W forming SE of HK

JTWC included this paragraph in the ABPW a short time ago:
=====
(3) THE AREA OF CONVECTION PREVIOUSLY LOCATED NEAR 18.2N1
118.5E5 IS NOW NEAR 18.6N5 118.3E3, JUST NORTHWEST OF LUZON OVER THE
SOUTH CHINA SEA. VISIBLE ANIMATION DEPICTS SIGNIFICANT DEVELOPMENT
OF THE CONVECTION SURROUNDING THE LOW-LEVEL CIRCULATION CENTER
(LLCC). SYNOPTIC SHIP REPORTS ARE INDICATING 25 TO 30 KNOTS IN THE
AREA. BASED ON CURRENT DATA, A TROPICAL CYCLONE WARNING WILL BE
ISSUED AT 020751Z5 AUG 02.
=====
Looking at the satpics it is getting more organised by the hour.  We may
well have our first typhoon signals hoisted here this weekend.
Will keep you posted.

Phil
<><

Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong

Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:17:46 -0500
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We have 
a weather saying about these parts that goes like this:"If it rains on the first 
day of a month, it will rain on 15 days of that month." I'm sure this saying 
could apply elsewhere, but not too much here. I looked at the past 5 years in 
Mena; the following are the months it rained on the 1st and the TOTAL rain days 
for the month:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>MAR 1997:&nbsp; 10</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>JUL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1997:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
9</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>SEP&nbsp; 1997:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>DEC&nbsp; 1997:&nbsp; 10</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>JUL&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1998:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
4</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>NOV&nbsp;&nbsp; 1998:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
7</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>JAN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1999:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
8</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>JUN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1999:&nbsp;&nbsp; 
14</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>APR&nbsp;&nbsp; 2000:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
6</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>MAY&nbsp;&nbsp; 2000:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
9</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>SEP&nbsp;&nbsp; 
2000:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;3</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>NOV&nbsp;&nbsp; 2000:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
12</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>MAR&nbsp;&nbsp; 2001:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
11</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>So, as you can see, we fall short of 15 days in a 
month. Do you have a similar saying in AUS/NZ? I'm sure some spots in your area 
would have no problem matching/exceeding the 15 days in the saying(esp. in the 
"wet" season). I really don't know where this saying came from but it is rarely 
fulfilled here.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any comments/observations would be greatly 
welcomed.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yours&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:28:05 -0500
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was just wondering(a hypothetical question) what 
town in AUS/NZ would be wettest without the maritime influence? We, in Mena, are 
400 or so miles(666.6 or so kms) from the ocean, so we have little ocean 
influence. What would be the annual average rainfall for AUS towns that are 
similarly inland(400 or so miles)&nbsp;from the ocean? THANKS for your 
answers!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David Powell</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=mskikey at hotmail.com href="mailto:mskikey at hotmail.com">michael 
  king</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 12:06 
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town 
  debate</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P><A 
  href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate, here's a 
  link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></DIV><BR clear=all>
  <HR>
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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:32:10 -0500
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AHHHH!!!Stupid Me!!!! In the corner of the Weather Page, says compiled by
Weather Central; Madison, Wisconsin. Sorry for asking such a redundant
question.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Blair Trewin" <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO


> >
> > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C238F5.927B6AE0
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:
> >          As earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE
=
> > newspaper. The world temps. are forecasts. Today,(Wednesday, July 31) =
> > the forecast for Auckland, NZ was partly cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW =
> > of 47F(8.3C). for Sydney, AUS was partly cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW
=
> > of 48F(8.8C), for Hong Kong was thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW =
> > of 78F(25.5C).
> >           My question is: Just where do these forecast figures come =
> > from? Do these figures come from ya'll or are they forecasted from the =
> > US? To simplify, who generates these forecast numbers?(how do they get =
> > into our newspaper?)
>
> They're almost certainly from a US-based provider, probably based
> on model output. These are better than they once were - you used to
> see some which were downright embarrassing (I recall once seeing
> one which forecast a max of 4 for Canberra in December) - but still
> prone to inaccuracies, especially in areas where the grid which
> the forecast is based on is too coarse to pick up local climate
> variations.
>
> On my recent trip to Canada I noticed that the 'Globe and Mail'
> (the major national Canadian newspaper) was carrying 4-day forecasts
> for a number of international centres, including Sydney. On a
> couple of days the forecast was for a minimum of -1 or -2 (this was
> in the middle of the cold spell in mid-July). I'd guess that this
> was a model forecast for a 'Sydney basin' gridpoint (-1 or -2 would
> have been realistic for a 'basin average' on the days when it was
> getting down to -5 or -6 in the outer west, but was clearly extremely
> unlikely for Observatory Hill).
>
> Blair
>
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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Humidity Question
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:40:02 -0500
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Again:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I 
love observing weather, etc; but there are a few things that I don't fully 
understand. My question is: How does Humidity help keep the temperature down? We 
are muggy here and as long as the humidity stays up, w/periodic rainfall, the 
temp. doesn't get much above the low-to-mid 90sF.(The humidity makes it feel 
much hotter).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another, unrelated question that I've always 
wondered about: If high places on the earth(mountains) are CLOSER to the sun, 
with THINNER air(which should warm rapidly), why are mountains so COLD? It would 
seem, because of the aforementioned circumstances, that high mountains should be 
one of the hottest places on earth. Instead, some deserts and below-sea-level 
areas(FARTHER from the sun) are the hottest places around. Could you give me 
reasons for this?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Still 
Learning&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:55:25 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
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When I was a kid in Victoria 50 years ago, the oldies all had a saying 
that if it rained on a certain day (trouble is, I have long since 
forgotten what day it was!) then it would certainly rain for the next 40 
days.  As school kids, we would wait in anticipation for the day and, if 
it rained, everyone would start counting the wet days afterwards but as 
far as I can recall it, everyone lost count or lost interest long before 
the 40 days were up.
I cannot remember now whether it was a certain Saint's day in the church 
calendar, or one of the equinoxes or solstices, or what the day was.
Can anyone else remember what day or date that was supposed to be?

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:17:46 -0500
Subject: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING

> Hello All:
>         We have a weather saying about these parts that goes like
> this:"If it rains on the first day of a month, it will rain on 15 days
> of that month." I'm sure this saying could apply elsewhere, but not too
> much here. I looked at the past 5 years in Mena; the following are the
> months it rained on the 1st and the TOTAL rain days for the month:
> MAR 1997:  10
> JUL   1997:    9
> SEP  1997:    6
> DEC  1997:  10
> JUL    1998:    4
> NOV   1998:    7
> JAN    1999:    8
> JUN    1999:   14
> APR   2000:      6
> MAY   2000:      9
> SEP   2000:      3
> NOV   2000:    12
> MAR   2001:    11
> So, as you can see, we fall short of 15 days in a month. Do you have a
> similar saying in AUS/NZ? I'm sure some spots in your area would have
> no problem matching/exceeding the 15 days in the saying(esp. in the
> "wet" season). I really don't know where this saying came from but it
> is rarely fulfilled here.
> Any comments/observations would be greatly welcomed.    Yours     
> David Powell
> 

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Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 15:58:58 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
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That's okay.  There is not one of us on this list that hasn't overlooked 
something obvious when we were trying to learn something new.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:32:10 -0500
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO

> AHHHH!!!Stupid Me!!!! In the corner of the Weather Page, says compiled
> by
> Weather Central; Madison, Wisconsin. Sorry for asking such a redundant
> question.
[snip]

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Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 16:01:26 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
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Generally speaking all of inland Australia is pretty dry and off the top 
of my head I cannot think of anywhere in Oz that is 400 miles from the 
ocean that would have a very high rainfall.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:28:05 -0500
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate

> I was just wondering(a hypothetical question) what town in AUS/NZ would
> be wettest without the maritime influence? We, in Mena, are 400 or so
> miles(666.6 or so kms) from the ocean, so we have little ocean
> influence. What would be the annual average rainfall for AUS towns that
> are similarly inland(400 or so miles) from the ocean? THANKS for your
> answers!    David Powell
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: michael king 
>   To: aussie-weather at world.std.com 
>   Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:06 AM
>   Subject: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
> 
> 
>   http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm
> 
> 
> 
>   in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate,
> here's a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
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Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 16:21:49 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Weather Underground
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Glen, as far as I can see, the only place where you can sign up tells you 
in big red letters before you click on it that to become a member will 
cost five bucks per year.  Therefore I would expect such a page to come 
up.  There is plenty of their site which is free for non-members to surf 
around in for hours.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Glen O'Riley" <goriley at tsn.cc>
To: "Aussie Weather List" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:59:59 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Weather Underground

> I assume that the purpose of the site weather underground is to provide
> information about worldwide weather. Does everyone else pay for the
> priveledge of providing this information. When I went to signup, there
> was a
> money amount showed up on the screen to be payed by credit card before
> the
> process went any further. Is this normal?
> 
> ___________________________________
> 
> Glen O'Riley
> goriley at tsn.cc
> www.mypage.tsn.cc/oriley
> 
> * Computer Repairs
> * Computer Sales
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From: "Chas & Helen Osborn" <hosborn at tassie.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:45:12 +1000
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> When I was a kid in Victoria 50 years ago, the oldies all had a saying
> that if it rained on

When I was a kid in Western Australia 40 years ago, the oldies had a saying
that if it did not rain by the full moon it will not rain till the new moon.
This was important for the break of the season for putting the wheat crop
in.

Chas
Strahan Tasmania

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From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Fw: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:41:05 +0930
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liam,

 the rumble would come from those sources to a certain extent but doesnt
amount to much in the grand scheme of things, the bulk of the rumble comes
from different parts of the lightning pressure wave arriving at different
times to you, if it  was 3km from one end to the other of the lightning
strike to you, then the bulk of the rumble would be approx. 9 seconds long.

regards
richard modistach


----- Original Message -----
From: Liam Domanski <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne


> Thunder is a product of lightning, and cannot exist by itself.
>
> The super hot lightning bolt heats the air surrounding it to extreme
temps.
> This air then rapidly expands away in all directions at the speed of
sound,
> causing a pressure wave to be created.
>
> The human ear percieves this pressure wave as sound.  When you hear a clap
> of thunder, you are not only hearing the direct result of that pressure
> wave, but also reflections of it from objects such at the ground,
buildings,
> hills, trees etc.
>
> This gives the rumbling effect.
>
>
>
> Liam
>
>
> >From: "Catherine Elliott" <faerinelda at hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
> >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:54:02 +1000
> >
> >Hi all,
> >
> >Still learning much from your posts and have 2 questions:-
> >1. Can thunder exist without lightning (I heard it but saw nothing)
> >&
> >2. Is Australia still in drought if so what would it take to get out of
it.
> >
> >Thank you for answering my questions happy weather watching all.
> >
> >regards,
> >cath
> >
> >P.S  my mother said that it was the BOMs fault for all the wind we have
> >been having because they draw the lines on the map and she requested that
> >you stop drawing the lines on the map :)
> >
> >P.P.S Shes not daft just Brittish and has its humour
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
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> >message.
> >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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From: "kbarnett" <kbarnett at bigpond.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 19:11:07 +1000
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I think it was St Swithin's.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING


> When I was a kid in Victoria 50 years ago, the oldies all had a saying
> that if it rained on a certain day (trouble is, I have long since
> forgotten what day it was!) then it would certainly rain for the next 40
> days.  As school kids, we would wait in anticipation for the day and, if
> it rained, everyone would start counting the wet days afterwards but as
> far as I can recall it, everyone lost count or lost interest long before
> the 40 days were up.
> I cannot remember now whether it was a certain Saint's day in the church
> calendar, or one of the equinoxes or solstices, or what the day was.
> Can anyone else remember what day or date that was supposed to be?
>
> Phil
> <><
>
> International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
> Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
> Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:17:46 -0500
> Subject: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
>
> > Hello All:
> >         We have a weather saying about these parts that goes like
> > this:"If it rains on the first day of a month, it will rain on 15 days
> > of that month." I'm sure this saying could apply elsewhere, but not too
> > much here. I looked at the past 5 years in Mena; the following are the
> > months it rained on the 1st and the TOTAL rain days for the month:
> > MAR 1997:  10
> > JUL   1997:    9
> > SEP  1997:    6
> > DEC  1997:  10
> > JUL    1998:    4
> > NOV   1998:    7
> > JAN    1999:    8
> > JUN    1999:   14
> > APR   2000:      6
> > MAY   2000:      9
> > SEP   2000:      3
> > NOV   2000:    12
> > MAR   2001:    11
> > So, as you can see, we fall short of 15 days in a month. Do you have a
> > similar saying in AUS/NZ? I'm sure some spots in your area would have
> > no problem matching/exceeding the 15 days in the saying(esp. in the
> > "wet" season). I really don't know where this saying came from but it
> > is rarely fulfilled here.
> > Any comments/observations would be greatly welcomed.    Yours
> > David Powell
> >
>
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>


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From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Fw: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:55:16 +0930
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hi catherine,

i've been saying for years that if bom lowered the average summer temp then
it wouldnt get so damn hot.

regards
richard modistach


----- Original Message -----
From: Catherine Elliott <faerinelda at hotmail.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne


> Hi all,
>
> Still learning much from your posts and have 2 questions:-
> 1. Can thunder exist without lightning (I heard it but saw nothing)
> &
> 2. Is Australia still in drought if so what would it take to get out of
it.
>
> Thank you for answering my questions happy weather watching all.
>
> regards,
> cath
>
> P.S  my mother said that it was the BOMs fault for all the wind we have
been
> having because they draw the lines on the map and she requested that you
> stop drawing the lines on the map :)
>
> P.P.S Shes not daft just Brittish and has its humour
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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X-Originating-IP: [144.132.18.241]
From: "Liam Domanski" <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:01:43 +1000
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<x-flowed>
Yeah, forgot to include that.

I was just pointed out that as well as hearing the collective sound from the 
pressure waves (from various parts of the bolt, ariving at different times) 
you also hear reflections for those waves.

Thanks for the correction.


Liam


>From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: Fw: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:41:05 +0930
>
>liam,
>
>  the rumble would come from those sources to a certain extent but doesnt
>amount to much in the grand scheme of things, the bulk of the rumble comes
>from different parts of the lightning pressure wave arriving at different
>times to you, if it  was 3km from one end to the other of the lightning
>strike to you, then the bulk of the rumble would be approx. 9 seconds long.
>
>regards
>richard modistach
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Liam Domanski <gashband at hotmail.com>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
>
>
> > Thunder is a product of lightning, and cannot exist by itself.
> >
> > The super hot lightning bolt heats the air surrounding it to extreme
>temps.
> > This air then rapidly expands away in all directions at the speed of
>sound,
> > causing a pressure wave to be created.
> >
> > The human ear percieves this pressure wave as sound.  When you hear a 
>clap
> > of thunder, you are not only hearing the direct result of that pressure
> > wave, but also reflections of it from objects such at the ground,
>buildings,
> > hills, trees etc.
> >
> > This gives the rumbling effect.
> >
> >
> >
> > Liam
> >
> >
> > >From: "Catherine Elliott" <faerinelda at hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > >To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > >Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
> > >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:54:02 +1000
> > >
> > >Hi all,
> > >
> > >Still learning much from your posts and have 2 questions:-
> > >1. Can thunder exist without lightning (I heard it but saw nothing)
> > >&
> > >2. Is Australia still in drought if so what would it take to get out of
>it.
> > >
> > >Thank you for answering my questions happy weather watching all.
> > >
> > >regards,
> > >cath
> > >
> > >P.S  my mother said that it was the BOMs fault for all the wind we have
> > >been having because they draw the lines on the map and she requested 
>that
> > >you stop drawing the lines on the map :)
> > >
> > >P.P.S Shes not daft just Brittish and has its humour
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > >
> > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
>your
> > >message.
> > >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
>your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------




_________________________________________________________________
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</x-flowed>
X-Originating-IP: [144.132.18.241]
From: "Liam Domanski" <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: Fw: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 20:01:43 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Aug 2002 10:01:44.0236 (UTC) FILETIME=[9B2E76C0:01C23A0B]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Yeah, forgot to include that.

I was just pointed out that as well as hearing the collective sound from the 
pressure waves (from various parts of the bolt, ariving at different times) 
you also hear reflections for those waves.

Thanks for the correction.


Liam


>From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: Fw: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:41:05 +0930
>
>liam,
>
>  the rumble would come from those sources to a certain extent but doesnt
>amount to much in the grand scheme of things, the bulk of the rumble comes
>from different parts of the lightning pressure wave arriving at different
>times to you, if it  was 3km from one end to the other of the lightning
>strike to you, then the bulk of the rumble would be approx. 9 seconds long.
>
>regards
>richard modistach
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Liam Domanski <gashband at hotmail.com>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 2:47 PM
>Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
>
>
> > Thunder is a product of lightning, and cannot exist by itself.
> >
> > The super hot lightning bolt heats the air surrounding it to extreme
>temps.
> > This air then rapidly expands away in all directions at the speed of
>sound,
> > causing a pressure wave to be created.
> >
> > The human ear percieves this pressure wave as sound.  When you hear a 
>clap
> > of thunder, you are not only hearing the direct result of that pressure
> > wave, but also reflections of it from objects such at the ground,
>buildings,
> > hills, trees etc.
> >
> > This gives the rumbling effect.
> >
> >
> >
> > Liam
> >
> >
> > >From: "Catherine Elliott" <faerinelda at hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > >To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > >Subject: Re: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
> > >Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:54:02 +1000
> > >
> > >Hi all,
> > >
> > >Still learning much from your posts and have 2 questions:-
> > >1. Can thunder exist without lightning (I heard it but saw nothing)
> > >&
> > >2. Is Australia still in drought if so what would it take to get out of
>it.
> > >
> > >Thank you for answering my questions happy weather watching all.
> > >
> > >regards,
> > >cath
> > >
> > >P.S  my mother said that it was the BOMs fault for all the wind we have
> > >been having because they draw the lines on the map and she requested 
>that
> > >you stop drawing the lines on the map :)
> > >
> > >P.P.S Shes not daft just Brittish and has its humour
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> > >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
> > >
> > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
>your
> > >message.
> > >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
>your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------




_________________________________________________________________
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</x-flowed>
From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: At last !
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 20:06:15 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The North East really turned it on today with some 
very heavy falls of rain experienced in the district. I got 25.6mm here and have 
reports from all over the district of well in excess of that and just north of 
the border they never got a drop. Heaviest fall of hail I've seen for a long 
time. It looked like snow in a lot of places. I'm putting Jane on the spot here 
and saying that I'll send them to her.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Guess who has the old set of boots day in and day 
out with holes in them, and got caught with some minor "flash flooding"? 
Grin.]</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Who'd be dead???????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 21:05:55 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>At the risk&nbsp;of ridicule I would say for 
Australia no such town exists, Even in the centre rainfall events are usually 
the result of cloud bands or moisture that&nbsp; began life in the Indian 
Ocean.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=dajapo at voltage.net href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net">arky dave</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 5:28 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
  town debate</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was just wondering(a hypothetical question) 
  what town in AUS/NZ would be wettest without the maritime influence? We, in 
  Mena, are 400 or so miles(666.6 or so kms) from the ocean, so we have little 
  ocean influence. What would be the annual average rainfall for AUS towns that 
  are similarly inland(400 or so miles)&nbsp;from the ocean? THANKS for your 
  answers!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David Powell</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=mskikey at hotmail.com href="mailto:mskikey at hotmail.com">michael 
    king</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
    title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
    </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 12:06 
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
    town debate</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P><A 
    href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate, here's 
    a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></DIV><BR clear=all>
    <HR>
    Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <A 
    href="http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENAU/c152??PI=44314">Click 
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    message. 
    -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ 
  </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 01:35:30 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Yes. St Swithins Day was the 15th of July. But it only applies in Southern
Scotland. The trouble was that emigrants took the old stories with them and
thought they could apply anywhere, being rather ignorant about weather
changing in different locations. The full saying is
St Swithin's day, if ye do rain
For forty days it will remain
St Swithin's day, an ye be fair
For forty days 'twill rain nae mair.

----- Original Message -----
From: "kbarnett" <kbarnett at bigpond.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING


> I think it was St Swithin's.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 5:55 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
>
>
> > When I was a kid in Victoria 50 years ago, the oldies all had a saying
> > that if it rained on a certain day (trouble is, I have long since
> > forgotten what day it was!) then it would certainly rain for the next 40
> > days.  As school kids, we would wait in anticipation for the day and, if
> > it rained, everyone would start counting the wet days afterwards but as
> > far as I can recall it, everyone lost count or lost interest long before
> > the 40 days were up.
> > I cannot remember now whether it was a certain Saint's day in the church
> > calendar, or one of the equinoxes or solstices, or what the day was.
> > Can anyone else remember what day or date that was supposed to be?
> >
> > Phil
> > <><
> >
> > International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
> > Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> > Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
> > Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 02:17:46 -0500
> > Subject: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
> >
> > > Hello All:
> > >         We have a weather saying about these parts that goes like
> > > this:"If it rains on the first day of a month, it will rain on 15 days
> > > of that month." I'm sure this saying could apply elsewhere, but not
too
> > > much here. I looked at the past 5 years in Mena; the following are the
> > > months it rained on the 1st and the TOTAL rain days for the month:
> > > MAR 1997:  10
> > > JUL   1997:    9
> > > SEP  1997:    6
> > > DEC  1997:  10
> > > JUL    1998:    4
> > > NOV   1998:    7
> > > JAN    1999:    8
> > > JUN    1999:   14
> > > APR   2000:      6
> > > MAY   2000:      9
> > > SEP   2000:      3
> > > NOV   2000:    12
> > > MAR   2001:    11
> > > So, as you can see, we fall short of 15 days in a month. Do you have a
> > > similar saying in AUS/NZ? I'm sure some spots in your area would have
> > > no problem matching/exceeding the 15 days in the saying(esp. in the
> > > "wet" season). I really don't know where this saying came from but it
> > > is rarely fulfilled here.
> > > Any comments/observations would be greatly welcomed.    Yours
> > > David Powell
> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
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> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
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> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Humidity Question
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 02:00:57 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Why mountain tops are colder- good question - so 
for what it's worth here's the (rather unpopular on this forum)moon 
explanation</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The air is thinner at the top of a mountain which 
is why mountaineers need oxygen. This condition, I think, allows the cold of 
space to seep closer to the ground on top of mountains, because there is less 
density of atmosphere to keep the cold of space away. This is because cold falls 
where there is less rising heat.&nbsp;It is interesting to note that Tibetans 
who do oxygen-less ascents wait till just after New moon. This is because the 
New moon is a day moon and it is still in the sky in the late afternoon, and 
because there is an air bulge always under where the moon is, there is more 
available oxygen in the area right until evening. I got that from several 
sources, the main one being Sir Edmund Hilary, who discussed with me why 
sometimes at 16000 feet you could breathe and sometimes you couldn't and he 
always fancied it was weather-related. He put me in touch with 79 year old 
Elizabeth Lawson of Katmandu, who had records of oxygenless ascents by 
Sherpas.&nbsp;Those I was told of, which numbered about&nbsp;two dozen were 
around at the same time of the phase month. Another source was a journalist for 
the Christchurch Press, Chris Moore, who told me he lived in N China and it was 
common knowledge there that you climb mountains after New moon.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I realise that this explanation might rankle with 
some, so let's have their explanations too..</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=dajapo at voltage.net href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net">arky dave</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 7:40 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Humidity Question</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Again:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  I love observing weather, etc; but there are a few things that I don't fully 
  understand. My question is: How does Humidity help keep the temperature down? 
  We are muggy here and as long as the humidity stays up, w/periodic rainfall, 
  the temp. doesn't get much above the low-to-mid 90sF.(The humidity makes it 
  feel much hotter).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Another, unrelated question that I've always 
  wondered about: If high places on the earth(mountains) are CLOSER to the sun, 
  with THINNER air(which should warm rapidly), why are mountains so COLD? It 
  would seem, because of the aforementioned circumstances, that high mountains 
  should be one of the hottest places on earth. Instead, some deserts and 
  below-sea-level areas(FARTHER from the sun) are the hottest places around. 
  Could you give me reasons for this?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  Still Learning&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  David Powell</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Good rainfall etc
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:05:15 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Got some very heavy rainfall here today and now it 
is calm and the frogs are talking again. More on the way 
hopefully????????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Good rainfall etc
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:05:15 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Got some very heavy rainfall here today and now it 
is calm and the frogs are talking again. More on the way 
hopefully????????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Re: 
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 02:20:39 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com



> As stated earlier, *heat* is the energy which flows between a system and
> it's environment due to a temperature difference between the two. In
> mathematical terms...
> Heat (Q) = C (T(final) - T(initial))
I agree, but that's because the word "temperature" really refers
etymologically to heating, and is therefore an inadequate term because
falling temperature would in that sense be a contradiction. We need an
unbiased word that can describe both heat rise and cold fall.

> *Heat* is a physical quantity that is easily measured. There is no
> equivalent for the concept of 'cold'.
I would say that cold is also easily measured. We have something called a
freezing point, we have ice, we know about thawing. If there was no concept
of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those.

> The *temperature* of a body is a measure of the *internal energy* of that
> body. A change in temperature can only be brought about if a body either
> transfers heat, does work or has work done on it.
I agree. And if a body transfers heat we call it cooling. You have just
allowed that a change of temperature may be cooling OR heating. So you have
just allowed for a concept for cold.

> Heat can be positive negative or zero. Temperature (and hence internal
> energy) can only be positive or zero (and even that is debatable). The
> concept of internal energy is probably more applicable to Ken's argument
> rather than heat.
> The concepts of heat, temperature and internal energy are intertwined -
and
> easily confused! That is all that has happened here.
I totally agree! But I think to say cold doesn't exist is a bit daft. I
wonder what an eskimo would say to that suggestion.
cheers
Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 21:56
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> Hi Kevin and all
> Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the
bottom
> of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics
sites.
> I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking
about
> heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the
disagreement
> is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of
> Thermodynamics
> too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask Jeeves
> and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.
>
> 1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
> TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
> distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
> dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If
the
> temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
> (Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and
> cooling
> have equal mathematical importance here..)
>
> 2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
> (But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
> moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the rules
> of English the cold did move too. No?).
>
> 3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
> meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
> chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
> increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
> between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as the
> opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai which
> just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean
> anything.
> If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So
not
> much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the
> degree
> of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
> hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
> So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
> cheers
> Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> > Hi every1,
> >
> > Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
> >
> > There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal
> energy
> > as has already been noted)
> >
> > Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> > another
> >
> > Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
> AVERAGE
> > kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
> have
> > gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
> >
> > Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative
> momentum
> > changes on a surface.
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> > The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> > knowledgeable people to debate...
> >
> > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Re: 
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 02:20:39 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com



> As stated earlier, *heat* is the energy which flows between a system and
> it's environment due to a temperature difference between the two. In
> mathematical terms...
> Heat (Q) = C (T(final) - T(initial))
I agree, but that's because the word "temperature" really refers
etymologically to heating, and is therefore an inadequate term because
falling temperature would in that sense be a contradiction. We need an
unbiased word that can describe both heat rise and cold fall.

> *Heat* is a physical quantity that is easily measured. There is no
> equivalent for the concept of 'cold'.
I would say that cold is also easily measured. We have something called a
freezing point, we have ice, we know about thawing. If there was no concept
of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those.

> The *temperature* of a body is a measure of the *internal energy* of that
> body. A change in temperature can only be brought about if a body either
> transfers heat, does work or has work done on it.
I agree. And if a body transfers heat we call it cooling. You have just
allowed that a change of temperature may be cooling OR heating. So you have
just allowed for a concept for cold.

> Heat can be positive negative or zero. Temperature (and hence internal
> energy) can only be positive or zero (and even that is debatable). The
> concept of internal energy is probably more applicable to Ken's argument
> rather than heat.
> The concepts of heat, temperature and internal energy are intertwined -
and
> easily confused! That is all that has happened here.
I totally agree! But I think to say cold doesn't exist is a bit daft. I
wonder what an eskimo would say to that suggestion.
cheers
Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 21:56
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> Hi Kevin and all
> Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the
bottom
> of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics
sites.
> I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking
about
> heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the
disagreement
> is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of
> Thermodynamics
> too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask Jeeves
> and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.
>
> 1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
> TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
> distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
> dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If
the
> temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
> (Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and
> cooling
> have equal mathematical importance here..)
>
> 2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
> (But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
> moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the rules
> of English the cold did move too. No?).
>
> 3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
> meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
> chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
> increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
> between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as the
> opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai which
> just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean
> anything.
> If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So
not
> much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the
> degree
> of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
> hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
> So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
> cheers
> Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> > Hi every1,
> >
> > Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
> >
> > There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal
> energy
> > as has already been noted)
> >
> > Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> > another
> >
> > Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
> AVERAGE
> > kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
> have
> > gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
> >
> > Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative
> momentum
> > changes on a surface.
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> > The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> > knowledgeable people to debate...
> >
> > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Sender: vk3jed-1 at 202.12.87.169
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:56:11 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Sea sick lightning Mel.
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 11:42 PM 1/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Hi all.
>I was just arriving at Flinders st station a few minutes before a small 
>but intense cell moved across the CBD at around 10pm. this cell was 
>preceded by a nice outflow cloud line with a bit of a curve to it, but 
>what followed was something I had never seen before, lightning was rather 
>unusual, very short and sharp discharges and very bright, but the 
>astounding aspect was the colour, a definite green, not just one but most 
>of the discharges around the CBD were green. The green colour was very 
>vivid so how do we explain this....was the lightning being refracted by 
>the falling precipitation? or was the lightning very hot! (refer to colour 
>of the stars i.e. very hot green, hot blue,  not so hot white and so on). 
>Anyway I think I will spend most of the night checking any other 
>occurrence of such a phenomena.....regards Clyve H.

Looking at the same cell from the west, the lightning was white (I core 
punched it by accident and had to stop for intense hail, but after it 
passed, followed it along Ballarat Rd for several km).  Makes me wonder if 
it a refractive phenomenon.  The storm had very heavy, though small hail 
(0.5cm), with visibility around 50m in Nth Sunshine.  Hail falls were even 
heavier in Maidstone (7-8kmW of the city), judging by the depth of the hail 
drifts on the road.

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
X-Sender: vk3jed-1 at 202.12.87.169
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 00:58:01 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 06:54 AM 2/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Not trying to be funny here but could it be because of smog or something
>similar in the air that was distorting the colour?
>Anyway would've loved to have seen it.

I forgot to mention I did see similar green lightning (as did Macca) during 
a storm in mid March (March 16?).  Did that cell have significant hail? Macca?

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Duncan & Mandy" <duncman at octa4.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 01:16:19 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


G'day Ken,
You mentioned at the start of the week that Alice Springs should get rain on
the 31st July, 1st & 2nd August, and have mentioned in other emails of
allowing for a 24 hour error rate each side of dates predicted. I have been
following your formula of lunar forecasts with interest - there are many
reasons for and against your methods - and this forecast of yours would be
an excellent and tough test, as we haven't had any rain since 23rd May
(3mm), and none before that since February. In fact, we've had only about 2
days since May (from memory) where there has been some cloud cover. And the
usual weather patterns prevailed this week - the days actually became warmer
over your prediction period - today (2nd July) it was Fine and 26C,
yesterday it was Fine and 27C. Anyone who can attempt long term daily
forecasts in an unpredictable region such as this (especially forecasting
rain in a desert winter) and be successful certainly has a talent!
But having said this, I noticed on the South Australian Observations that
Mintabie, about an hour West of Marla in S.A.'s far North, and a place that
has similar weather (and lunar) patterns to Alice Springs, did indeed
receive rainfall - 26mm on 1st August! So I am none the wiser on how
accurate your forecasts are.
Perhaps the sceptics (I am still one, but less so after this week) may
become believers if you can deliver accurate forecasts on a fairly regular
basis for regions that have very unpredictable weather. Desert regions
certainly fall into this category. I feel that regions that receive frontal
rainfall weather can be fairly easy to predict by working out averages and
doing some number crunching, as others on this list have suggested.
Predicting how much rain that falls is the hard question. But to predict
when it rains in somewhere like Mintabie is unbelievable, more so if this
can be done regularly.
Please everyone get off the physics lessons - reminds me too much of boring
(for me) physics classes at school!
Cheers,
Duncan Treloar
Alice Springs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 9:51 am
Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


> Richard
> I am satisfied with my hit rate, as must be others as my free ezine list
has
> risen from nothing to over 800 in about a year. The thing is, evaluation
is
> rather subjective. An Auckland secondary school group(St Cuthberts)for a
> science project studied me for three months and gave me 87%. Others have
> said 75-80%. Only one group for some reason seem to find my accuracy is
low
> level - meteorologists. It all comes down to what someone calls a dry or
wet
> day. I don't even like to identify days, only trends or 3-4 day windows.
If
> it comes down to a day then I ask for a 24hr potential error, which still
> ends up as a 3-4 day window. This because I think in the past that was all
> that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
> week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2
oclock
> next friday! That's why I try to steer people toward my isobaric maps,
which
> is what I first arrive at in my calculations. After that it comes down to
> interpretation. When I say maps I mean those from the past that I come up
> with and can point to and say will probably repeat on a given future day.
> cheers
> Ken
> www.predictweather.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:45 AM
> Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > ken,
> >
> > i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you been
> > getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks obs.
> > whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked,
thats
> > dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot
on
> > the internet.
> >
> > regards
> > richard modistach
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> >
> >
> > > David
> > > First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
> > anymore.
> > > Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer
> about
> > > 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
> > rather
> > > not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not the
> > > regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of days
> > > ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in 1998,
> out
> > > of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> > > forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the 23rd
> on
> > > this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between
> 27-29,
> > > clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who
would
> > find
> > > that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then there
> > would
> > > be others who would rush to random number generators in order to
satisfy
> > > themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have to
> > > convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described it
> for
> > > anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
> > >
> > > As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the
trouble
> > to
> > > read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the theory
> of
> > > lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we
can
> > get
> > > into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement
> critics
> > > are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise
> themselves
> > > with where I am coming from, but because they think they are
scientists
> > they
> > > assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this
is
> > > left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from Copernicus
> > down.
> > > In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> > > Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were
the
> > > founding fathers of modern science - all would have described
themselves
> > as
> > > astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there should
be
> > > always room for new approaches and reform.
> > >
> > > I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist, whatever
> that
> > > is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology
can
> > > adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> > > astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years, watching
> the
> > > moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the
> subject
> > > makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> > > unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who
> hasn't
> > > read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data
that
> > > related to the moon.
> > >
> > > After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> > > rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the Nodal
> > Cycle,
> > > the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does, nor
is
> > > phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
> > behaviour
> > > other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet, completely
> > > cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
> > >
> > > I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on
> 'profound',
> > as
> > > interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I
say
> > dry
> > > and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was a
> dry
> > > day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for
someone
> > > then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to accept
> re
> > > August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before
> passing
> > > judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make
mistakes -
> > > that's how we learn.
> > >
> > > It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over
me
> in
> > > that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical
data
> > and
> > > multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and have
> to
> > > earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
> > through
> > > the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me
and
> > > it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers
> from
> > > the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more
fantastic.
> > > best wishes
> > > Ken
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > > To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> > > Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> > > Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Ken,
> > > >
> > > > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken
> seriously,
> > > can
> > > > you please explain.
> > > >
> > > > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the phase
> of
> > > the
> > > > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> > > prediction
> > > > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this
year
> > that
> > > > leads you to believe that the August through November period should
> only
> > > get
> > > > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
> > driest
> > > > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such
> period
> > on
> > > > record.
> > > >
> > > > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently
enduring
> > > > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good
scientific
> > > theory
> > > > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Dr David Jones
> > > >
> > > > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > > > National Climate Centre
> > > > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > > > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > > > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > > > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Hail in NE Victoria
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 07:46:04 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Morning all,

Bussy's report on the amazing hailstorm in Rutherglen yesterday - should
knock the socks off your SDS for a whiile !!
http://www.stormchasers.au.com/02_08_02.htm

Enjoy!!

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------






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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:09:05 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Ken,

So if the person who reported the event (historically) wrote the wrong
date (say they wrote the wrong month or year) on the report so that the
report then was actually spurious, you would still use this information
to create your forecast??? with no way of being able to verify the
acccuracy of the information that you use????

<snip>
>Bear in mind I was going off historical reports
> by some person but I have no idea who wrote it or where that person
happened
> to be standing with respect to the general area. All I did was access
the
> time to look at the report. Moon data led me right to the time. That's
one
> reason I ask for a 24 hr error. He/she might have been reporting the
next
> day. So the next question is, was it coincidence that I got so close?
And
> the next question, how many coincidences = a theory?
> regards
> Ken

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------



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From: "kbarnett" <kbarnett at bigpond.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 08:48:14 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Michael, what about Tennant Creek in the 
NT?&nbsp; I would think it's pretty close to Mena (homoclimatic). Both towns 
would have similar exposure being in the lower latitudes? Except of course that 
TC has a wet and dry season so maybe that disqualifies it. (Does Mena have 
similar or does it rain there all the year?)</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=thunder at ozthunder.com href="mailto:thunder at ozthunder.com">Michael 
  Thompson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 9:05 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
  town debate</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>At the risk&nbsp;of ridicule I would say for 
  Australia no such town exists, Even in the centre rainfall events are usually 
  the result of cloud bands or moisture that&nbsp; began life in the Indian 
  Ocean.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=dajapo at voltage.net href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net">arky dave</A> 
    </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
    title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
    </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 5:28 
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
    town debate</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was just wondering(a hypothetical question) 
    what town in AUS/NZ would be wettest without the maritime influence? We, in 
    Mena, are 400 or so miles(666.6 or so kms) from the ocean, so we have little 
    ocean influence. What would be the annual average rainfall for AUS towns 
    that are similarly inland(400 or so miles)&nbsp;from the ocean? THANKS for 
    your answers!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David Powell</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE 
    style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
      <DIV 
      style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
      <A title=mskikey at hotmail.com href="mailto:mskikey at hotmail.com">michael 
      king</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
      title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
      href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
      </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 12:06 
      AM</DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
      town debate</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV>
      <DIV>
      <P><A 
      href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV></DIV>
      <DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate, 
      here's a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></DIV><BR 
      clear=all>
      <HR>
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      with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your 
      message. 
      -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ 
    </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 12:05:35 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Duncan and all
Thanks for that report. I'm certainly pleased rain fell somewhere in the
general area as I predicted. Bear in mind I was going off historical reports
by some person but I have no idea who wrote it or where that person happened
to be standing with respect to the general area. All I did was access the
time to look at the report. Moon data led me right to the time. That's one
reason I ask for a 24 hr error. He/she might have been reporting the next
day. So the next question is, was it coincidence that I got so close? And
the next question, how many coincidences = a theory?
regards
Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan & Mandy" <duncman at octa4.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 3:46 AM
Subject: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs


> G'day Ken,
> You mentioned at the start of the week that Alice Springs should get rain
on
> the 31st July, 1st & 2nd August, and have mentioned in other emails of
> allowing for a 24 hour error rate each side of dates predicted. I have
been
> following your formula of lunar forecasts with interest - there are many
> reasons for and against your methods - and this forecast of yours would be
> an excellent and tough test, as we haven't had any rain since 23rd May
> (3mm), and none before that since February. In fact, we've had only about
2
> days since May (from memory) where there has been some cloud cover. And
the
> usual weather patterns prevailed this week - the days actually became
warmer
> over your prediction period - today (2nd July) it was Fine and 26C,
> yesterday it was Fine and 27C. Anyone who can attempt long term daily
> forecasts in an unpredictable region such as this (especially forecasting
> rain in a desert winter) and be successful certainly has a talent!
> But having said this, I noticed on the South Australian Observations that
> Mintabie, about an hour West of Marla in S.A.'s far North, and a place
that
> has similar weather (and lunar) patterns to Alice Springs, did indeed
> receive rainfall - 26mm on 1st August! So I am none the wiser on how
> accurate your forecasts are.
> Perhaps the sceptics (I am still one, but less so after this week) may
> become believers if you can deliver accurate forecasts on a fairly regular
> basis for regions that have very unpredictable weather. Desert regions
> certainly fall into this category. I feel that regions that receive
frontal
> rainfall weather can be fairly easy to predict by working out averages and
> doing some number crunching, as others on this list have suggested.
> Predicting how much rain that falls is the hard question. But to predict
> when it rains in somewhere like Mintabie is unbelievable, more so if this
> can be done regularly.
> Please everyone get off the physics lessons - reminds me too much of
boring
> (for me) physics classes at school!
> Cheers,
> Duncan Treloar
> Alice Springs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > Richard
> > I am satisfied with my hit rate, as must be others as my free ezine list
> has
> > risen from nothing to over 800 in about a year. The thing is, evaluation
> is
> > rather subjective. An Auckland secondary school group(St Cuthberts)for a
> > science project studied me for three months and gave me 87%. Others have
> > said 75-80%. Only one group for some reason seem to find my accuracy is
> low
> > level - meteorologists. It all comes down to what someone calls a dry or
> wet
> > day. I don't even like to identify days, only trends or 3-4 day windows.
> If
> > it comes down to a day then I ask for a 24hr potential error, which
still
> > ends up as a 3-4 day window. This because I think in the past that was
all
> > that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
> > week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2
> oclock
> > next friday! That's why I try to steer people toward my isobaric maps,
> which
> > is what I first arrive at in my calculations. After that it comes down
to
> > interpretation. When I say maps I mean those from the past that I come
up
> > with and can point to and say will probably repeat on a given future
day.
> > cheers
> > Ken
> > www.predictweather.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:45 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> >
> >
> > > ken,
> > >
> > > i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you
been
> > > getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks
obs.
> > > whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked,
> thats
> > > dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot
> on
> > > the internet.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> > >
> > >
> > > > David
> > > > First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
> > > anymore.
> > > > Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer
> > about
> > > > 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
> > > rather
> > > > not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not
the
> > > > regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of
days
> > > > ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in
1998,
> > out
> > > > of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> > > > forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the
23rd
> > on
> > > > this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between
> > 27-29,
> > > > clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who
> would
> > > find
> > > > that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then
there
> > > would
> > > > be others who would rush to random number generators in order to
> satisfy
> > > > themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have
to
> > > > convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described
it
> > for
> > > > anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
> > > >
> > > > As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the
> trouble
> > > to
> > > > read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the
theory
> > of
> > > > lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we
> can
> > > get
> > > > into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement
> > critics
> > > > are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise
> > themselves
> > > > with where I am coming from, but because they think they are
> scientists
> > > they
> > > > assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this
> is
> > > > left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from
Copernicus
> > > down.
> > > > In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> > > > Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were
> the
> > > > founding fathers of modern science - all would have described
> themselves
> > > as
> > > > astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there
should
> be
> > > > always room for new approaches and reform.
> > > >
> > > > I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist,
whatever
> > that
> > > > is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology
> can
> > > > adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> > > > astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years,
watching
> > the
> > > > moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the
> > subject
> > > > makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> > > > unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who
> > hasn't
> > > > read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data
> that
> > > > related to the moon.
> > > >
> > > > After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> > > > rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the
Nodal
> > > Cycle,
> > > > the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does,
nor
> is
> > > > phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
> > > behaviour
> > > > other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet,
completely
> > > > cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
> > > >
> > > > I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on
> > 'profound',
> > > as
> > > > interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I
> say
> > > dry
> > > > and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was
a
> > dry
> > > > day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for
> someone
> > > > then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to
accept
> > re
> > > > August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before
> > passing
> > > > judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make
> mistakes -
> > > > that's how we learn.
> > > >
> > > > It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over
> me
> > in
> > > > that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical
> data
> > > and
> > > > multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and
have
> > to
> > > > earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
> > > through
> > > > the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me
> and
> > > > it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers
> > from
> > > > the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more
> fantastic.
> > > > best wishes
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > > > To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> > > > Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> > > > Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Ken,
> > > > >
> > > > > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken
> > seriously,
> > > > can
> > > > > you please explain.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the
phase
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> > > > prediction
> > > > > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this
> year
> > > that
> > > > > leads you to believe that the August through November period
should
> > only
> > > > get
> > > > > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
> > > driest
> > > > > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such
> > period
> > > on
> > > > > record.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently
> enduring
> > > > > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good
> scientific
> > > > theory
> > > > > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr David Jones
> > > > >
> > > > > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > > > > National Climate Centre
> > > > > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > > > > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > > > > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > > > > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
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> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 20:32:47 -0500
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There is no wet/dry season in Mena. The wettest 
avg. month is May at 6.40IN(162.5mm), on average the driest months are January 
and August averaging 2.70IN(68.5mm). Even in the drier months, Mena seldom goes 
for more than 2 weeks without measurable rain. But, I suppose that the frontal 
rain(esp. Pacific Cold fronts) that Mena gets starts out over the ocean. The 
warm south winds do increase our humidity, but that's about the extent of our 
maritime influence.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=kbarnett at bigpond.net.au 
  href="mailto:kbarnett at bigpond.net.au">kbarnett</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 5:48 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
  town debate</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT color=#000000 size=2>Michael, what about Tennant Creek in the 
  NT?&nbsp; I would think it's pretty close to Mena (homoclimatic). Both towns 
  would have similar exposure being in the lower latitudes? Except of course 
  that TC has a wet and dry season so maybe that disqualifies it. (Does Mena 
  have similar or does it rain there all the year?)</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=thunder at ozthunder.com href="mailto:thunder at ozthunder.com">Michael 
    Thompson</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
    title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
    </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 9:05 
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
    town debate</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>At the risk&nbsp;of ridicule I would say for 
    Australia no such town exists, Even in the centre rainfall events are 
    usually the result of cloud bands or moisture that&nbsp; began life in the 
    Indian Ocean.</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
    style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
      <DIV 
      style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
      <A title=dajapo at voltage.net href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net">arky dave</A> 
      </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
      title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
      href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
      </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 5:28 
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx 
      wettest town debate</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was just wondering(a hypothetical question) 
      what town in AUS/NZ would be wettest without the maritime influence? We, 
      in Mena, are 400 or so miles(666.6 or so kms) from the ocean, so we have 
      little ocean influence. What would be the annual average rainfall for AUS 
      towns that are similarly inland(400 or so miles)&nbsp;from the ocean? 
      THANKS for your answers!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David Powell</FONT></DIV>
      <BLOCKQUOTE 
      style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
        <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
        <DIV 
        style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
        <A title=mskikey at hotmail.com href="mailto:mskikey at hotmail.com">michael 
        king</A> </DIV>
        <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
        title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
        href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
        </DIV>
        <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 02, 2002 12:06 
        AM</DIV>
        <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest 
        town debate</DIV>
        <DIV><BR></DIV>
        <DIV>
        <DIV>
        <P><A 
        href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
        <DIV></DIV>
        <DIV></DIV>
        <DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate, 
        here's a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></DIV><BR 
        clear=all>
        <HR>
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        -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ 
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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Discrepancy
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 20:38:02 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G'August to All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As of the end of 
July, 2002, KENA radio station(official wx sta. for MENA) has recorded 36 and 
1/2 IN(over 927.1mm) rain so far this year. I am a little over a Mile, Northwest 
of KENA and have recorded a little over 41 and 1/2IN(over 1,054.1mm) of rain 
this year. Is this a normal discrepancy so far over this year?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; P.S. We 
missed rain again today as it slid to our Northwest.(This rain was not in 
yesterday's forecast).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Have a GREAT 
Weekend&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Regards&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:23:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: David Hart <dhart at theworld.com>
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From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:35:28 +1000
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Ken,

I get rather upset when basic physical concepts are misunderstood or
misused. Heat is one concept (which others here have pointed out) that is
often misused and misunderstood, even in scientific circles.

'Heating' occurs when heat is transferred to a body. 'Cooling' occurs when
heat is transferred away from a body. Of course this definition allows
cooling. Heat can be positive, negative or zero. It is measured as a
transfer from one body or state to another.

You stated
"We have something called a freezing point, we have ice, we know about
thawing. If there was no concept
of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those."
These rely on the temperature of the substance in question which we can
readily measure with a thermometer. Not the heat or a concept of 'cold'. If
I remove sufficient heat from a body of water, i.e. cool it, I will end up
with ice. The body of water will be at 273.15 K or less (below 0 C). The
freezing point of iron is 1535 C (1810 K) - would one consider that 'cold'?
Or the freezing point of helium - -272 C, ~1 K?

I would suggest looking further afield than "Ask Jeeves" for a better
understanding of true physical concepts though.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/heacon.html
http://www.unidata.ucar.edu/staff/blynds/tmp.html

A few notes about verbs (since some others consider that to be important)
'Hot' is the opposite of 'cold' ("Coffee is hot, ice cream is cold") They
describe a relative temperature difference.
'To heat' (or perhaps 'to warm') is the opposite of 'to cool'

I apologise if I sound aggressive, but I feel that I should stick up for
proper use of scientific terms. As I said before, "Heat" is misused too
often. Heat is the physical quantity which describes the energy transfer
between two bodies at different temperatures.

Ken, You are more than welcome to use the term 'cold' to describe a
transfer of heat energy away from a body (when the final temperature of the
body is less than the initial temperature of the body), but I fear you
would be in a vast minority and you would only succeed in confusing the
majority.

Also, the Eskimo probably thinks 0C is quite warm!

Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:21
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Re:



> As stated earlier, *heat* is the energy which flows between a system and
> it's environment due to a temperature difference between the two. In
> mathematical terms...
> Heat (Q) = C (T(final) - T(initial))
I agree, but that's because the word "temperature" really refers
etymologically to heating, and is therefore an inadequate term because
falling temperature would in that sense be a contradiction. We need an
unbiased word that can describe both heat rise and cold fall.

> *Heat* is a physical quantity that is easily measured. There is no
> equivalent for the concept of 'cold'.
I would say that cold is also easily measured. We have something called a
freezing point, we have ice, we know about thawing. If there was no concept
of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those.

> The *temperature* of a body is a measure of the *internal energy* of that
> body. A change in temperature can only be brought about if a body either
> transfers heat, does work or has work done on it.
I agree. And if a body transfers heat we call it cooling. You have just
allowed that a change of temperature may be cooling OR heating. So you have
just allowed for a concept for cold.

> Heat can be positive negative or zero. Temperature (and hence internal
> energy) can only be positive or zero (and even that is debatable). The
> concept of internal energy is probably more applicable to Ken's argument
> rather than heat.
> The concepts of heat, temperature and internal energy are intertwined -
and
> easily confused! That is all that has happened here.
I totally agree! But I think to say cold doesn't exist is a bit daft. I
wonder what an eskimo would say to that suggestion.
cheers
Ken

> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 21:56
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> Hi Kevin and all
> Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the
bottom
> of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics
sites.
> I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking
about
> heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the
disagreement
> is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of
> Thermodynamics
> too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask
Jeeves
> and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.
>
> 1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
> TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
> distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
> dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If
the
> temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
> (Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and
> cooling
> have equal mathematical importance here..)
>
> 2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
> (But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
> moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the
rules
> of English the cold did move too. No?).
>
> 3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
> meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
> chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
> increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
> between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as
the
> opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai
which
> just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean
> anything.
> If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So
not
> much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the
> degree
> of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
> hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
> So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
> cheers
> Ken
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> > Hi every1,
> >
> > Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
> >
> > There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal
> energy
> > as has already been noted)
> >
> > Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> > another
> >
> > Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
> AVERAGE
> > kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
> have
> > gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
> >
> > Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative
> momentum
> > changes on a surface.
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> > The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> > knowledgeable people to debate...
> >
> > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
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> >  message.
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
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From: "Glen O'Riley" <goriley at tsn.cc>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Weather Underground
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 15:03:29 +1000
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Yeah, thought so. They shouldn't charge people to upload I reckon but
anyway.

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Phil Smith
Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 6:22 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Weather Underground


Glen, as far as I can see, the only place where you can sign up tells you
in big red letters before you click on it that to become a member will
cost five bucks per year.  Therefore I would expect such a page to come
up.  There is plenty of their site which is free for non-members to surf
around in for hours.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Glen O'Riley" <goriley at tsn.cc>
To: "Aussie Weather List" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:59:59 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Weather Underground

> I assume that the purpose of the site weather underground is to provide
> information about worldwide weather. Does everyone else pay for the
> priveledge of providing this information. When I went to signup, there
> was a
> money amount showed up on the screen to be payed by credit card before
> the
> process went any further. Is this normal?
>
> ___________________________________
>
> Glen O'Riley
> goriley at tsn.cc
> www.mypage.tsn.cc/oriley
>
> * Computer Repairs
> * Computer Sales
> * Computer Upgrades
> * Computer Networking
> * Computer Training
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> WebMaster For:
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> --------
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>

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From: "Paul Yole" <pyole at lexicon.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 00:17:43 -0500
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Just my 2 cents, but I can verify that Jane is her real name. I spend once a month with her, so can confirm it, along with about 100
other people.

PaulY

Paul Yole
State Rep - ASWA Victoria
EDD: 08/08/02
http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/

"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 00:41
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs


Jane
Yeah, but you're forgetting something. What if they wrote the right date?
How do I know Jane is really your name? Can you verify it please? I go off
newspaper reports. I get them from all over. Articles presumably written the
day or the day after, or the next week about the week before. Certainly not
the year after.
And spurious reports? Man, I've heard that the outback can play tricks with
the mind, but your idea now heads the list! Obviously I have no way to
verify the reports because I wasn't at every location at the same time at
every day in the past, in NZ, Australia and the UK(I can't believe you're
asking me this with a straight face).
Just because one has to rely on the reports of others, are you trying to
tell me that therefore the method is flawed? Even the metservices depend on
obs gathered at authorised locations in remote areas. They pay farmers to
send them in. But no one questions the accuracy of the gathering process
with respect to them. I have read your responses to letters on this forum
and you certainly seem to believe what people write because I DON'T see you
asking for verification all the time.
Don't forget I am claiming that I can pinpoint NOT the amount of rain so
much as the potential for rain at that area at that time. I know this is
dreadfully hard to admit, but may I respectfully suggest that there IS a
remote chance that the lunar method COULD HAVE BEEN CORRECT...

On or around the 7th-9th watch out, NSW to QSLD, Wagga Wagga to Townsville.
Forget verification, just watch those riverbanks. If they flood it's called
lotsarain..

cheers
Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs


> Ken,
>
> So if the person who reported the event (historically) wrote the wrong
> date (say they wrote the wrong month or year) on the report so that the
> report then was actually spurious, you would still use this information
> to create your forecast??? with no way of being able to verify the
> acccuracy of the information that you use????
>
> <snip>
> >Bear in mind I was going off historical reports
> > by some person but I have no idea who wrote it or where that person
> happened
> > to be standing with respect to the general area. All I did was access
> the
> > time to look at the report. Moon data led me right to the time. That's
> one
> > reason I ask for a 24 hr error. He/she might have been reporting the
> next
> > day. So the next question is, was it coincidence that I got so close?
> And
> > the next question, how many coincidences = a theory?
> > regards
> > Ken
>
> Jane
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
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>



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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 17:41:27 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Jane
Yeah, but you're forgetting something. What if they wrote the right date?
How do I know Jane is really your name? Can you verify it please? I go off
newspaper reports. I get them from all over. Articles presumably written the
day or the day after, or the next week about the week before. Certainly not
the year after.
And spurious reports? Man, I've heard that the outback can play tricks with
the mind, but your idea now heads the list! Obviously I have no way to
verify the reports because I wasn't at every location at the same time at
every day in the past, in NZ, Australia and the UK(I can't believe you're
asking me this with a straight face).
Just because one has to rely on the reports of others, are you trying to
tell me that therefore the method is flawed? Even the metservices depend on
obs gathered at authorised locations in remote areas. They pay farmers to
send them in. But no one questions the accuracy of the gathering process
with respect to them. I have read your responses to letters on this forum
and you certainly seem to believe what people write because I DON'T see you
asking for verification all the time.
Don't forget I am claiming that I can pinpoint NOT the amount of rain so
much as the potential for rain at that area at that time. I know this is
dreadfully hard to admit, but may I respectfully suggest that there IS a
remote chance that the lunar method COULD HAVE BEEN CORRECT...

On or around the 7th-9th watch out, NSW to QSLD, Wagga Wagga to Townsville.
Forget verification, just watch those riverbanks. If they flood it's called
lotsarain..

cheers
Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs


> Ken,
>
> So if the person who reported the event (historically) wrote the wrong
> date (say they wrote the wrong month or year) on the report so that the
> report then was actually spurious, you would still use this information
> to create your forecast??? with no way of being able to verify the
> acccuracy of the information that you use????
>
> <snip>
> >Bear in mind I was going off historical reports
> > by some person but I have no idea who wrote it or where that person
> happened
> > to be standing with respect to the general area. All I did was access
> the
> > time to look at the report. Moon data led me right to the time. That's
> one
> > reason I ask for a 24 hr error. He/she might have been reporting the
> next
> > day. So the next question is, was it coincidence that I got so close?
> And
> > the next question, how many coincidences = a theory?
> > regards
> > Ken
>
> Jane
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>



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X-Sender: mbath at mail.ozemail.com.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:55:15 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Michael Bath <mbath at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Weather Underground
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
You can upload for free - go to this page and sign up:

http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/index.asp

cheers, Michael



At 03:03 PM 3/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Yeah, thought so. They shouldn't charge people to upload I reckon but
>anyway.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
>[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Phil Smith
>Sent: Friday, 2 August 2002 6:22 PM
>To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Weather Underground
>
>
>Glen, as far as I can see, the only place where you can sign up tells you
>in big red letters before you click on it that to become a member will
>cost five bucks per year.  Therefore I would expect such a page to come
>up.  There is plenty of their site which is free for non-members to surf
>around in for hours.
>
>Phil
><><
>
>International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
>Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
>Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
>Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Glen O'Riley" <goriley at tsn.cc>
>To: "Aussie Weather List" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 15:59:59 +1000
>Subject: aus-wx: Weather Underground
>
> > I assume that the purpose of the site weather underground is to provide
> > information about worldwide weather. Does everyone else pay for the
> > priveledge of providing this information. When I went to signup, there
> > was a
> > money amount showed up on the screen to be payed by credit card before
> > the
> > process went any further. Is this normal?
> >
> > ___________________________________
> >
> > Glen O'Riley
> > goriley at tsn.cc
> > www.mypage.tsn.cc/oriley
> >
> > * Computer Repairs
> > * Computer Sales
> > * Computer Upgrades
> > * Computer Networking
> > * Computer Training
> > * Web Page Construction
> > * TV Antenna Installation
> > * Livestock Work
> > --------
> > WebMaster For:
> > www.ansansw.com.au
> > --------
> > Storm Chaser
> > Firefighter
> > SES Volunteer
> > ACREM CB Radio Monitor
> > Rail Fan
> > _________________________________
> >
> >
>
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>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>
>
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  ==================================================================
  Michael Bath      mailto:mbath at ozemail.com.au
  McLeans Ridges    co-webmaster: http://australiasevereweather.com/
  North Coast NSW   webmaster:    http://lightningphotography.com/
  Australia         webmaster:    http://www.severeweather.asn.au/
  ==================================================================

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Paul Rands" <prands at optusnet.com.au>
To: "Aus Wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:59:48 +1000
X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.20.2360) For Windows 2000 (5.0.2195;2)
Subject: aus-wx: Hail - Penrith
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Guys,

Did we have a great hailstorm or what?!!?

I am here in Penrith, it was 3:45ish and my cousin, myself and his wife had just finished watching American Pie 2, and we were talking away, I heard this roaring sound and thought it was the builders next door. 
It went really dark, I got up and look out the window and bits of tree and stuff was flying everywhere the windows were shaking and next thing you know we copped hail that was the size of 20 cent pieces!!

Lasted for about 10 minutes. My cousin and I dashed outside to save his ClubSport... No damage luckily... Shame I got no pix.



/Paul Rands
prands at optusnet.com.au

ICQ: 137833127
MSN: Dirk (prands at efter-stormen.com)
WWW: http://prands.docspages.com/


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Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 16:03:57 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail in NE Victoria
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.2
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What a beauty! I haven't seen a hail storm like that in so many years 
now, I had nearly forgotten what hail was!
Well done with the photos, Bussy!

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 07:46:04 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Hail in NE Victoria

> Morning all,
> 
> Bussy's report on the amazing hailstorm in Rutherglen yesterday -
> should
> knock the socks off your SDS for a whiile !!
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com/02_08_02.htm
> 
> Enjoy!!
> 
> Jane
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> 
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> 
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
> -

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From: "Peter Konnecke" <konno at optusnet.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail - Penrith
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 18:12:41 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Just saw it on 7 News ... nice coating of white at the golf course !!

Lucky the club sport wasn't under the tree I saw crashed over the car in the
driveway.

Pete

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Rands <prands at optusnet.com.au>
To: Aus Wx <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Hail - Penrith


> Hi Guys,
>
> Did we have a great hailstorm or what?!!?
>
> I am here in Penrith, it was 3:45ish and my cousin, myself and his wife
had just finished watching American Pie 2, and we were talking away, I heard
this roaring sound and thought it was the builders next door.
> It went really dark, I got up and look out the window and bits of tree and
stuff was flying everywhere the windows were shaking and next thing you know
we copped hail that was the size of 20 cent pieces!!
>
> Lasted for about 10 minutes. My cousin and I dashed outside to save his
ClubSport... No damage luckily... Shame I got no pix.
>
>
>
> /Paul Rands
> prands at optusnet.com.au
>
> ICQ: 137833127
> MSN: Dirk (prands at efter-stormen.com)
> WWW: http://prands.docspages.com/
>
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


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From: "Paul Rands" <prands at optusnet.com.au>
To: "aussie-weather at world.std.com" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:35:45 +1000
X-Mailer: PMMail 2000 Professional (2.20.2360) For Windows 2000 (5.0.2195;2)
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail - Penrith
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hey all

I just got back from my folks place at South penrith, a few trees down including in folks front yard -just missed the ouse. Others werent as lucky with trees on houses and cars




>Just saw it on 7 News ... nice coating of white at the golf course !!
>
>Lucky the club sport wasn't under the tree I saw crashed over the car in the
>driveway.
>
>Pete
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Paul Rands <prands at optusnet.com.au>
>To: Aus Wx <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 4:59 PM
>Subject: aus-wx: Hail - Penrith
>
>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> Did we have a great hailstorm or what?!!?
>>
>> I am here in Penrith, it was 3:45ish and my cousin, myself and his wife
>had just finished watching American Pie 2, and we were talking away, I heard
>this roaring sound and thought it was the builders next door.
>> It went really dark, I got up and look out the window and bits of tree and
>stuff was flying everywhere the windows were shaking and next thing you know
>we copped hail that was the size of 20 cent pieces!!
>>
>> Lasted for about 10 minutes. My cousin and I dashed outside to save his
>ClubSport... No damage luckily... Shame I got no pix.
>>
>>
>>
>> /Paul Rands
>> prands at optusnet.com.au
>>
>> ICQ: 137833127
>> MSN: Dirk (prands at efter-stormen.com)
>> WWW: http://prands.docspages.com/
>>
>>
>>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>>  message.
>>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>
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> To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>


/Paul Rands
prands at optusnet.com.au

ICQ: 137833127
MSN: Dirk (prands at efter-stormen.com)
WWW: http://prands.docspages.com/


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From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Discrepancy
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 19:54:48 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Grin. Our average here is 560mm a year or 
approximately 22 inches. We'd be flooded with that sort of 
rainfall.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=dajapo at voltage.net href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net">arky dave</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:38 
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Discrepancy</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G'August to All:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As of the end of 
  July, 2002, KENA radio station(official wx sta. for MENA) has recorded 36 and 
  1/2 IN(over 927.1mm) rain so far this year. I am a little over a Mile, 
  Northwest of KENA and have recorded a little over 41 and 1/2IN(over 1,054.1mm) 
  of rain this year. Is this a normal discrepancy so far over this 
  year?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; P.S. We 
  missed rain again today as it slid to our Northwest.(This rain was not in 
  yesterday's forecast).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Have a 
  GREAT Weekend&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  Regards&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail in NE Victoria
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 20:00:56 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


A humble "thank you"........
You have no idea how excited I got....
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail in NE Victoria


> What a beauty! I haven't seen a hail storm like that in so many years 
> now, I had nearly forgotten what hail was!
> Well done with the photos, Bussy!



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From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Jane's news
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 20:09:11 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jane has been on a chase and&nbsp;may 
have&nbsp;some exciting news when she gets back. Not letting any more info 
out.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jane, your call.........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

X-Sender: vk3jed-1 at 202.12.87.169
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 20:24:57 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Jane's news
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 08:09 PM 3/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Jane has been on a chase and may have some exciting news when she gets 
>back. Not letting any more info out.
>Jane, your call.........
>Bussy (Rutherglen NE Victoria)

The cat's out of the bag on IRC. ;-)

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:31:05 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re:
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
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While we are on Physics, allow me to deviate from topic far enough to 
describe an experiment I did in front of a class of kids many years ago.
I had a brand new, unopened, vacuum-sealed jar of Vegemite.
With the class in utter silence I broke the seal and everyone heard a 
loud hiss and a pop from the metal lid.
I then said, "Did everybody hear the vacuum leaking out?" and most of 
the kids nodded.  I then asked them to write about their observations and 
what they think caused the sounds that they heard.
The power of suggestion was evidenced by the fact that most of the class 
turned in essays about how much noise vacuums make while they are 
escaping from sealed vessels.  Someone even described the pop that was 
made as the vacuum "exploded" out of the jar.  Very few mentioned 
anything about the sound made by the air rushing in.  
The point of this story is that most of us believe in exactly what we are 
taught and never question it again for the rest of our lives.
I did not fail any of the kids that wrote about the escaping vacuum, 
after all, couldn't that be another valid way to describe the phenomenon?
So yeah, I did get Honours in Physics, and I know all the "correct" 
scientific definitions (well, I used to know 'em anyway, probably 
forgotten a lot by now!), but I am quite happy to hear Ken talking about 
the "cold falling down" because I understand exactly what he means by it.
When I open the door of my upright freezer and see the condensation 
falling through the air to the floor, I say to my kids, "Hey, look at the 
cold falling out."  They understand okay.
So that's my 2c worth.
And don't forget to listen for the vacuum coming out next time you open 
a new jar of Vegemite!

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:41:11 +1200
Subject: aus-wx: Re:

> David
> It may appear I am begging the question, but the scientific terms are
> inadequate, just as the weather models are inadequate that exclude
> lunar
> factors. The moon theory of the air tide depends on the understanding
> that
> cold falls from space because of a thinner atmosphere, made so by the
> moon.
> It is uselss to talk of temperature as if it was a two-way process
> because
> the very word and therefore the concept is only defined as a function
> of a
> one-way process. Therein lies the problem and it is a fundamental one,
> because physicists cannot see past their own erroneously limited
> definition
> and having grown up with it feel obliged to defend it at all costs,
> despite
> logic.
> Commonsense does not prevail here. Cold is the opposite of heat, it
> should
> be the end of story. It is equal in conceptual importance and just goes
> the
> other way, also should be end of story. It actually DOES, but science
> cannot
> explain it using the language of thermodynamics. The only possible
> conclusion has to be that cold doesn't exist, only hot does. This is
> because
> they have beaten themselves into a verbal corner and can't get out of
> it.
> But we know that molecular excitation goes down or up. It only ceases
> at
> absolute zero, so there is plenty of room to talk of cooling as a
> separate
> process, much as the depth of a depression in psychiatry is not defined
> as a
> function of decreasing happiness.
> I know what you are saying about Heat being the physical quantity which
> describes the energy transfer between two bodies at different
> temperatures.
> I did physics to uni level. Now I say no, that is what the books say
> and it
> is too limiting.  I cannot see why 'cold' cannot describe a transfer of
> heat
> energy away from a body in all reasonable commonsense. Perhaps I am in
> a
> vast minority but would hasten to point out that weather forecasting by
> the
> moon has a long way to go in order that the concepts be understood. Our
> language guides the way we think, and I think the majority have been
> misled
> by a thousand years of, in this area at least, an inadequate science
> both in
> its concepts and its vocabulary.
> And no one has yet explained the mountain-top thing..
> cheers
> Ken
> 
> 
> > Ken,
> > I get rather upset when basic physical concepts are misunderstood or
> > misused. Heat is one concept (which others here have pointed out)
> that is
> > often misused and misunderstood, even in scientific circles.
> >
[snip]

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:32:30 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Report from HK as 16W approaches
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See attached:
Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 17:46:29 +0800
Subject: Report from HK as 16W approaches

We have seen several brief patches of sun shining through since lunch
time.
And a few small patches of blue sky where the sun didn't make it also
scurried swiftly across.  (Yeah, I know it was the clouds doing the
scurrying and the blue bits were what was left in between them, but it
sounded a good way to say it).
But most of the time it has been solid 8/8 high cloud with great massive
grey clouds racing across the sky much lower down from North to South. 
Down
here at ground level the wind is from the N, but the speed is only 8
km/h.
The clouds appear to be racing much faster than that.
Pressure is now down to 997.5 HPa.  Other obs at the moment are 29.0C,
78%,
HIndex 34.3C.
AT 1700 HKT (0900Z) 16W was 280 km southeast of here and heading
northwest
at 12 km/h.
There's not been any rain since lunchtime, but the Thunderstorm Warning
was
hoisted at 1645 with not the slightest sign of a thunderstorm anywhere
around.  (My kids won't be happy: they went to the swimming pool at 1630
and
would have been kicked out after only a few minutes in the water.  They
must
have gone someplace else, because they haven't turned up back here yet at
1744.)
Whoops, I spoke to soon.  As I typed there was a bright flash, a great 
crackle of thunder and the rain started streaming down at 1746.

More later.

Phil
<><

Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong

Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:35:33 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Pressure dropping as 16W approaches
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This one was from earlier today:

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 13:14:13 +0800
Subject: Pressure dropping as 16W approaches

The rain has eased off but we are still under the outer cloudbands so it
is
still a dull day here.  No wind worth mentioning.
Pressure is dropping significantly as you can see at
http://www.drdisk.com.hk/images/shapre020803.png which I saved a couple
of
minutes ago.
Warnings from the HKO are the same as my last post.
Obs here at present are: 30.7C, 71%, HIndex 37.1C, 999.0 HPa, Wind from N
at
14.0 km/h (on 10-min avge), 8/8 cloud.
Phil
<><

Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong

Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 18:36:39 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Typhoon Signal One hoisted at HK for 16W
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And this was my first report this morning:

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 10:47:57 +0800
Subject: Typhoon Signal One hoisted at HK for 16W

Since I awoke this morning it has been very dull outside with a dense
overcast.  Rain has been fairly constant for the past few hours but there
have been a couple of brief breaks.  There has been no wind to speak of.
All agencies are now forecasting TD16W to pass well to our east so I am
expecting only outer rainbands here.
Here is the latest warning from the Observatory:
======
Bulletin issued at 10:34 HKT 03/Aug/2002
TROPICAL CYCLONE BULLETIN

Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Advisory Bulletin
issued by the Hong Kong Observatory.

A Tropical Cyclone Alert is now in effect and the Standby Signal,
No. 1 was issued at 0950 a.m.
This means that a Tropical Cyclone now centred within about 800
kilometres of Hong Kong may affect us.

At 10 a.m. the centre of  Tropical Depression in the northeastern
part of the South China sea  was estimated to be about 390
kilometres east-southeast  of  Hong Kong (near 20.8 degrees north
117.6 degrees east) and is forecast to move north-northwest at
about 8 kilometres per hour towards the eastern part of Guangdong.

As the tropical depression is still some distance from Hong Kong.
The threat of strong winds locally is not high today. The chance
of issuing the Strong Wind signal No.3 is rather low.

The outer rainbands of the tropical depression is beginning to
affect Hong Kong and there will be scattered showers today.

(Precautionary Announcements with No. 1 Signal)
(1)
Some precautions against damage should be taken now, gutters and
drains should be cleared of obstructions. Hinges, bolts, locks
and shutters of windows and doors should be checked.

(2)
Listen to your radio or watch your TV for further weather
information.

(3)
If you are planning to visit Macau, any of the off-shore
islands or remote parts of Hong Kong, you are reminded that
changes in weather may affect your plans.

(4)
Since the sea state may be very rough, you are advised to stay
away from the shoreline and not to engage in water sports.
============

Phil
<><

Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong

Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:38:39 +1000
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Ken wrote:
> Jane
> Yeah, but you're forgetting something. What if they wrote the right
date?
> How do I know Jane is really your name? Can you verify it please? I go
off
> newspaper reports. I get them from all over. Articles presumably
written the
> day or the day after, or the next week about the week before.
Certainly not
> the year after.
> And spurious reports? Man, I've heard that the outback can play tricks
with
> the mind, but your idea now heads the list! Obviously I have no way to
> verify the reports because I wasn't at every location at the same time
at
> every day in the past, in NZ, Australia and the UK(I can't believe
you're
> asking me this with a straight face).

Duncan wrote a different date in his email to you than the date you were
talking about..... were you both talking about the same days?
"> G'day Ken,
> You mentioned at the start of the week that Alice Springs should get
rain
on
> the 31st July, 1st & 2nd August, and have mentioned in other emails of
> allowing for a 24 hour error rate each side of dates predicted. I have
been
> following your formula of lunar forecasts with interest - there are
many
> reasons for and against your methods - and this forecast of yours
would be
> an excellent and tough test, as we haven't had any rain since 23rd May
> (3mm), and none before that since February. In fact, we've had only
about
2
> days since May (from memory) where there has been some cloud cover.
And
the
> usual weather patterns prevailed this week - the days actually became
warmer
> over your prediction period - today (2nd July) it was Fine and 26C,
> yesterday it was Fine and 27C.


--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Re: 
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:41:11 +1200
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David
It may appear I am begging the question, but the scientific terms are
inadequate, just as the weather models are inadequate that exclude lunar
factors. The moon theory of the air tide depends on the understanding that
cold falls from space because of a thinner atmosphere, made so by the moon.
It is uselss to talk of temperature as if it was a two-way process because
the very word and therefore the concept is only defined as a function of a
one-way process. Therein lies the problem and it is a fundamental one,
because physicists cannot see past their own erroneously limited definition
and having grown up with it feel obliged to defend it at all costs, despite
logic.
Commonsense does not prevail here. Cold is the opposite of heat, it should
be the end of story. It is equal in conceptual importance and just goes the
other way, also should be end of story. It actually DOES, but science cannot
explain it using the language of thermodynamics. The only possible
conclusion has to be that cold doesn't exist, only hot does. This is because
they have beaten themselves into a verbal corner and can't get out of it.
But we know that molecular excitation goes down or up. It only ceases at
absolute zero, so there is plenty of room to talk of cooling as a separate
process, much as the depth of a depression in psychiatry is not defined as a
function of decreasing happiness.
I know what you are saying about Heat being the physical quantity which
describes the energy transfer between two bodies at different temperatures.
I did physics to uni level. Now I say no, that is what the books say and it
is too limiting.  I cannot see why 'cold' cannot describe a transfer of heat
energy away from a body in all reasonable commonsense. Perhaps I am in a
vast minority but would hasten to point out that weather forecasting by the
moon has a long way to go in order that the concepts be understood. Our
language guides the way we think, and I think the majority have been misled
by a thousand years of, in this area at least, an inadequate science both in
its concepts and its vocabulary.
And no one has yet explained the mountain-top thing..
cheers
Ken


> Ken,
> I get rather upset when basic physical concepts are misunderstood or
> misused. Heat is one concept (which others here have pointed out) that is
> often misused and misunderstood, even in scientific circles.
>
> 'Heating' occurs when heat is transferred to a body. 'Cooling' occurs when
> heat is transferred away from a body. Of course this definition allows
> cooling. Heat can be positive, negative or zero. It is measured as a
> transfer from one body or state to another.
>
> You stated
> "We have something called a freezing point, we have ice, we know about
> thawing. If there was no concept
> of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those."
> These rely on the temperature of the substance in question which we can
> readily measure with a thermometer. Not the heat or a concept of 'cold'.
If
> I remove sufficient heat from a body of water, i.e. cool it, I will end up
> with ice. The body of water will be at 273.15 K or less (below 0 C). The
> freezing point of iron is 1535 C (1810 K) - would one consider that
'cold'?
> Or the freezing point of helium - -272 C, ~1 K?
>
> I would suggest looking further afield than "Ask Jeeves" for a better
> understanding of true physical concepts though.
>
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/heacon.html
> http://www.unidata.ucar.edu/staff/blynds/tmp.html
>
> A few notes about verbs (since some others consider that to be important)
> 'Hot' is the opposite of 'cold' ("Coffee is hot, ice cream is cold") They
> describe a relative temperature difference.
> 'To heat' (or perhaps 'to warm') is the opposite of 'to cool'
>
> I apologise if I sound aggressive, but I feel that I should stick up for
> proper use of scientific terms. As I said before, "Heat" is misused too
> often. Heat is the physical quantity which describes the energy transfer
> between two bodies at different temperatures.
>
> Ken, You are more than welcome to use the term 'cold' to describe a
> transfer of heat energy away from a body (when the final temperature of
the
> body is less than the initial temperature of the body), but I fear you
> would be in a vast minority and you would only succeed in confusing the
> majority.
>
> Also, the Eskimo probably thinks 0C is quite warm!
>
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:21
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: aus-wx: Re:
>
>
>
> > As stated earlier, *heat* is the energy which flows between a system and
> > it's environment due to a temperature difference between the two. In
> > mathematical terms...
> > Heat (Q) = C (T(final) - T(initial))
> I agree, but that's because the word "temperature" really refers
> etymologically to heating, and is therefore an inadequate term because
> falling temperature would in that sense be a contradiction. We need an
> unbiased word that can describe both heat rise and cold fall.
>
> > *Heat* is a physical quantity that is easily measured. There is no
> > equivalent for the concept of 'cold'.
> I would say that cold is also easily measured. We have something called a
> freezing point, we have ice, we know about thawing. If there was no
concept
> of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those.
>
> > The *temperature* of a body is a measure of the *internal energy* of
that
> > body. A change in temperature can only be brought about if a body either
> > transfers heat, does work or has work done on it.
> I agree. And if a body transfers heat we call it cooling. You have just
> allowed that a change of temperature may be cooling OR heating. So you
have
> just allowed for a concept for cold.
>
> > Heat can be positive negative or zero. Temperature (and hence internal
> > energy) can only be positive or zero (and even that is debatable). The
> > concept of internal energy is probably more applicable to Ken's argument
> > rather than heat.
> > The concepts of heat, temperature and internal energy are intertwined -
> and
> > easily confused! That is all that has happened here.
> I totally agree! But I think to say cold doesn't exist is a bit daft. I
> wonder what an eskimo would say to that suggestion.
> cheers
> Ken
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 21:56
> > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
> >
> >
> > Hi Kevin and all
> > Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the
> bottom
> > of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics
> sites.
> > I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking
> about
> > heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the
> disagreement
> > is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of
> > Thermodynamics
> > too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask
> Jeeves
> > and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.
> >
> > 1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
> > TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
> > distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
> > dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If
> the
> > temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
> > (Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and
> > cooling
> > have equal mathematical importance here..)
> >
> > 2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
> > (But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
> > moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the
> rules
> > of English the cold did move too. No?).
> >
> > 3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
> > meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
> > chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
> > increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
> > between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as
> the
> > opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai
> which
> > just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean
> > anything.
> > If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So
> not
> > much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the
> > degree
> > of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
> > hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
> > So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
> > cheers
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
> > Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
> >
> >
> > > Hi every1,
> > >
> > > Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
> > >
> > > There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal
> > energy
> > > as has already been noted)
> > >
> > > Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object
to
> > > another
> > >
> > > Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
> > AVERAGE
> > > kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
> > have
> > > gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
> > >
> > > Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative
> > momentum
> > > changes on a surface.
> > >
> > > Just my thoughts.
> > >
> > > The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> > > knowledgeable people to debate...
> > >
> > > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
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> > >  message.
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> > >
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:51:27 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Evening all,

Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or 4
minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps should
be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
know why, or is this called a coincidence?

http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm

Jane

--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------






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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "David Carroll" <davidkc at hotkey.net.au>
To: "Aussie Weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Hail Storm - Bathurst
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 22:57:36 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>HI All. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>At around 4.10pm this afternoon a massive 
hail storm hit the Bathurst area with force. I had looked at sky only 20 min 
earlier and thought we were going to cop a good storm. I was at friends place at 
the time, was amazed how quick the ground and roads turned white with hail. The 
hailstones were not that big, just alot of them. Winds were very high also. The 
traffic on the main highway traffic into Bathurst from Orange all slowed to a 
crawl. Im surprised there were not any accidents reported.&nbsp; </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I called the BOM Severe Wx section to 
advise what happened. The hail took many hours to melt, certainly a winter 
storm. It is very cold outside now, would possibly be snowing around the Oberon 
area tonight. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" 
size=2>Dave<BR>Bathurst</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re:
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:20:22 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hear, hear, Phil. My feelings exactly. There seems to be some arguing going
on that is best explained by your post. I'm here to read everyone's views.
Maybe my views on watching nature's "signs" are considered out of whack, but
it's what I've learned over the years and like to pass them on. We all have
different ideas and maybe should watch and listen to some other views to get
a different light on things.
There's my 2.2 cents worth (2 cents plus GST)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re:


> While we are on Physics, allow me to deviate from topic far enough to
> describe an experiment I did in front of a class of kids many years ago.
> I had a brand new, unopened, vacuum-sealed jar of Vegemite.
> With the class in utter silence I broke the seal and everyone heard a
> loud hiss and a pop from the metal lid.
> I then said, "Did everybody hear the vacuum leaking out?" and most of
> the kids nodded.  I then asked them to write about their observations and
> what they think caused the sounds that they heard.
> The power of suggestion was evidenced by the fact that most of the class
> turned in essays about how much noise vacuums make while they are
> escaping from sealed vessels.  Someone even described the pop that was
> made as the vacuum "exploded" out of the jar.  Very few mentioned
> anything about the sound made by the air rushing in.
> The point of this story is that most of us believe in exactly what we are
> taught and never question it again for the rest of our lives.
> I did not fail any of the kids that wrote about the escaping vacuum,
> after all, couldn't that be another valid way to describe the phenomenon?
> So yeah, I did get Honours in Physics, and I know all the "correct"
> scientific definitions (well, I used to know 'em anyway, probably
> forgotten a lot by now!), but I am quite happy to hear Ken talking about
> the "cold falling down" because I understand exactly what he means by it.
> When I open the door of my upright freezer and see the condensation
> falling through the air to the floor, I say to my kids, "Hey, look at the
> cold falling out."  They understand okay.
> So that's my 2c worth.
> And don't forget to listen for the vacuum coming out next time you open
> a new jar of Vegemite!
>
> Phil
> <><
>
> International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
> Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
> Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:41:11 +1200
> Subject: aus-wx: Re:
>
> > David
> > It may appear I am begging the question, but the scientific terms are
> > inadequate, just as the weather models are inadequate that exclude
> > lunar
> > factors. The moon theory of the air tide depends on the understanding
> > that
> > cold falls from space because of a thinner atmosphere, made so by the
> > moon.
> > It is uselss to talk of temperature as if it was a two-way process
> > because
> > the very word and therefore the concept is only defined as a function
> > of a
> > one-way process. Therein lies the problem and it is a fundamental one,
> > because physicists cannot see past their own erroneously limited
> > definition
> > and having grown up with it feel obliged to defend it at all costs,
> > despite
> > logic.
> > Commonsense does not prevail here. Cold is the opposite of heat, it
> > should
> > be the end of story. It is equal in conceptual importance and just goes
> > the
> > other way, also should be end of story. It actually DOES, but science
> > cannot
> > explain it using the language of thermodynamics. The only possible
> > conclusion has to be that cold doesn't exist, only hot does. This is
> > because
> > they have beaten themselves into a verbal corner and can't get out of
> > it.
> > But we know that molecular excitation goes down or up. It only ceases
> > at
> > absolute zero, so there is plenty of room to talk of cooling as a
> > separate
> > process, much as the depth of a depression in psychiatry is not defined
> > as a
> > function of decreasing happiness.
> > I know what you are saying about Heat being the physical quantity which
> > describes the energy transfer between two bodies at different
> > temperatures.
> > I did physics to uni level. Now I say no, that is what the books say
> > and it
> > is too limiting.  I cannot see why 'cold' cannot describe a transfer of
> > heat
> > energy away from a body in all reasonable commonsense. Perhaps I am in
> > a
> > vast minority but would hasten to point out that weather forecasting by
> > the
> > moon has a long way to go in order that the concepts be understood. Our
> > language guides the way we think, and I think the majority have been
> > misled
> > by a thousand years of, in this area at least, an inadequate science
> > both in
> > its concepts and its vocabulary.
> > And no one has yet explained the mountain-top thing..
> > cheers
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > > Ken,
> > > I get rather upset when basic physical concepts are misunderstood or
> > > misused. Heat is one concept (which others here have pointed out)
> > that is
> > > often misused and misunderstood, even in scientific circles.
> > >
> [snip]
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>


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From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:26:15 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
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Excellent stuff!!! I'm beginning to think the NE is the breeding ground for
this stuff and me of all people has never caught any of this :-(
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:51 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


> Evening all,
>
> Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
> Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or 4
> minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps should
> be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
> rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
> know why, or is this called a coincidence?
>
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sat, 03 Aug 2002 23:48:31 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Latest obs from HK
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
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See attached:

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 23:46:44 +0800
Subject: Latest obs from HK

Just after completing the last e-mail, it suddenly became so dark that
all
the street lights came on.  Then visibility dropped to less than 200
metres
because of the driving rain.  The wind here was strong enough to cause
the
whole building to shudder, but it only lasted at that strength for about
a
minute or so.  The highest wind recorded (10-minute avge.) for Shatin was
21
km/h.  There is no provision for recording gusts.
After that one wild squall it became pretty quiet again with just
alternating rain and no rain as the rainbands came and went.
Other obs at 23:20 were 27.8C, 81%, 998.2 HPa, wind from N at 9.0 km/h
It's all pretty quiet now so I'm going to bed.
More tomorrow.

Phil
<><

Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong

Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 06:29:27 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
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Well done, Jane.  Looking forward to those video captures and report as 
well.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 2002 21:51:27 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria

> Evening all,
> 
> Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
> Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or
> 4
> minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps
> should
> be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
> rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
> know why, or is this called a coincidence?
> 
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> 
> Jane
> 
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> 
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> 
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
> -

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Peter Matters" <pkmatters at bigpond.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:15:43 +1000
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Excellent stuff Jane! And right on my doorstep!!!!!!!
I could see the cell from Monegeeta (family bday party). The sunlit anvil
looked quite impressive through the foreground Alrostratus. The buildup was
pushing the cap from around lunchtime with TCU and Congestus everywhere.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:51 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


> Evening all,
>
> Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
> Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or 4
> minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps should
> be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
> rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
> know why, or is this called a coincidence?
>
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 07:25:14 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Morning report from HK
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
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See attached:
Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 07:24:00 +0800
Subject: Morning report from HK

Around midnight I looked at the pages of all the agencies and discovered
that they were mostly predicting a direct hit on HK by TD 16W.
I therefore commenced a page at http://www.drdisk.com.hk/kammuri.htm to
write up details on this storm.  At the moment, about all that is in it
are
the captures I made at 06:30 local time this morning of the graphs from
the
HKO local AWS here.
During the night there was not sufficient wind or rain to awaken me.
This morning I am looking out the window at a cloud-filled sky with the
clouds moving rapidly from North to South.  The trees on the hillside are
swaying, but not wildly.  There is no rain at the moment.
Obs at 07:00 are pasted below (if your e-mail views as HTML they should
format into a table, if not they may appear as a mess):
<PRE>
Date/Time: 4/8/2002 07:00
Station        Temp RH   Max/Min  Dir/Speed Barometer HI
               (C)  (%)    (C)      (km/h)   (hPa)    (C)
----------------------------------------------------------
HK Observatory 27.2  82 27.5/26.2 ---/-----  994.6
King's Park    27.1  77 ----/---- N  / 19.4  994.2
Wong Chuk Hang 27.6  75 27.6/26.1 VRB/ 15.0 ------
Ta Kwu Ling    26.8  91 27.3/26.4 ---/ 19.0  995.0
Lau Fau Shan   27.2  83 27.3/26.7 N  / 27.0  995.0
Tai Po         28.7  70 29.1/28.6 ---/-----  995.0    32.1
Sha Tin        27.8  78 28.5/27.4 N  / 17.0  994.6
Tuen Mun       27.3  83 27.3/26.7 N  /  6.0 ------
Tseung Kwan O  26.3  86 26.3/25.4 N  / 12.0 ------
Sai Kung       26.5  85 27.4/26.2 N  / 25.0 ------
Cheung Chau    26.0  84 26.0/25.4 N  / 40.0  994.2
Chek Lap Kok   27.8  79 28.1/27.3 N  / 23.0  995.2
Tsing Yi       27.3  74 27.4/27.0 N  / 29.0 ------
Shek Kong      26.7  93 26.7/26.2 ---/-----  995.0
</PRE>
I live in Sha Tin where the wind is a steady 17.0 km/h from the North and
the Temp is 27.8C and the RH 78%.  The pressure has fallen to 994.6 HPa
Here is this morning's warning from the HKO:
========
Bulletin issued at 06:57 HKT 04/Aug/2002
TROPICAL CYCLONE BULLETIN

Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Advisory Bulletin
issued by the Hong Kong Observatory.

A Tropical Cyclone Alert is now in effect and the Standby Signal,
No. 1 has been issued.
This means that a Tropical Cyclone now centred within about 800
kilometres of Hong Kong may affect us.

At 7 a.m., Tropical Storm  Kammuri in the northern part of
the South China Sea was estimated to be about 190 kilometres
south-southeast of Hong Kong (near 20.7 degrees north 114.7
degrees east). It is forecast to move northwest at about 8
kilometres per hour towards the coast of Guangdong.

During the past few hours, Tropical Storm Kammuri stopped
moving west and showed signs of changing its direction of
movement. With the approach of Kammuri, winds inside the
harbour will strengthen and the Observatory may have to
consider issuing the Strong Wind Signal No.3 later today.

(Precautionary Announcements with No. 1 Signal)

(1)

Some precautions against damage should be taken now, gutters and
drains should be cleared of obstructions. Hinges, bolts, locks
and shutters of windows and doors should be checked.

(2)

If you are planning to visit Macau, any of the off-shore
islands or remote parts of Hong Kong, you are reminded that
changes in weather may affect your plans.

(3)

Since sea state may be very rough, you are advised to stay
away from the shoreline and not to engage in water sports.

(4)

Owners of small craft should ensure that their moorings are in
good conditions and adequate, and take any precautions they
consider necessary.

(5)

Listen to your radio or watch your TV for further weather
information.
========
It's now time for me to get ready to go to church.
More later.

Phil
<><

Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong

Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fridays hail storm
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 09:56:08 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Link to the Border Mail (Albury/Wodonga newspaper) 
report on the hail storm with some good pics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A 
href="http://www.bordermail.com.au/newsflow/pageitem?page_id=454382">http://www.bordermail.com.au/newsflow/pageitem?page_id=454382</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Craig Arthur" <carthur at theweather.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: 
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:08:37 +1000
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Ken,

Apologies for the confusion but David is not writing the email you responded
to. It is my fault for using an email addy which is not on the list and thus
David has to manually forward to the list (thank you for doing so David).

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. Having completed a
major in Physics, I have learnt the information I have passed on to the list
in the hope that others may choose to add it to their knowledge. It is up to
the reader to decide which way they think.
As for the mountain tops - how about more weight of air at lower levels,
hence compression of air which leads to warming of the lower levels, then
the higher peaks are cooler than the surface.

Craig


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:41 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Re:


David
It may appear I am begging the question, but the scientific terms are
inadequate, just as the weather models are inadequate that exclude lunar
factors. The moon theory of the air tide depends on the understanding that
cold falls from space because of a thinner atmosphere, made so by the moon.
It is uselss to talk of temperature as if it was a two-way process because
the very word and therefore the concept is only defined as a function of a
one-way process. Therein lies the problem and it is a fundamental one,
because physicists cannot see past their own erroneously limited definition
and having grown up with it feel obliged to defend it at all costs, despite
logic.
Commonsense does not prevail here. Cold is the opposite of heat, it should
be the end of story. It is equal in conceptual importance and just goes the
other way, also should be end of story. It actually DOES, but science cannot
explain it using the language of thermodynamics. The only possible
conclusion has to be that cold doesn't exist, only hot does. This is because
they have beaten themselves into a verbal corner and can't get out of it.
But we know that molecular excitation goes down or up. It only ceases at
absolute zero, so there is plenty of room to talk of cooling as a separate
process, much as the depth of a depression in psychiatry is not defined as a
function of decreasing happiness.
I know what you are saying about Heat being the physical quantity which
describes the energy transfer between two bodies at different temperatures.
I did physics to uni level. Now I say no, that is what the books say and it
is too limiting.  I cannot see why 'cold' cannot describe a transfer of heat
energy away from a body in all reasonable commonsense. Perhaps I am in a
vast minority but would hasten to point out that weather forecasting by the
moon has a long way to go in order that the concepts be understood. Our
language guides the way we think, and I think the majority have been misled
by a thousand years of, in this area at least, an inadequate science both in
its concepts and its vocabulary.
And no one has yet explained the mountain-top thing..
cheers
Ken


> Ken,
> I get rather upset when basic physical concepts are misunderstood or
> misused. Heat is one concept (which others here have pointed out) that is
> often misused and misunderstood, even in scientific circles.
>
> 'Heating' occurs when heat is transferred to a body. 'Cooling' occurs when
> heat is transferred away from a body. Of course this definition allows
> cooling. Heat can be positive, negative or zero. It is measured as a
> transfer from one body or state to another.
>
> You stated
> "We have something called a freezing point, we have ice, we know about
> thawing. If there was no concept
> of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those."
> These rely on the temperature of the substance in question which we can
> readily measure with a thermometer. Not the heat or a concept of 'cold'.
If
> I remove sufficient heat from a body of water, i.e. cool it, I will end up
> with ice. The body of water will be at 273.15 K or less (below 0 C). The
> freezing point of iron is 1535 C (1810 K) - would one consider that
'cold'?
> Or the freezing point of helium - -272 C, ~1 K?
>
> I would suggest looking further afield than "Ask Jeeves" for a better
> understanding of true physical concepts though.
>
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/heacon.html
> http://www.unidata.ucar.edu/staff/blynds/tmp.html
>
> A few notes about verbs (since some others consider that to be important)
> 'Hot' is the opposite of 'cold' ("Coffee is hot, ice cream is cold") They
> describe a relative temperature difference.
> 'To heat' (or perhaps 'to warm') is the opposite of 'to cool'
>
> I apologise if I sound aggressive, but I feel that I should stick up for
> proper use of scientific terms. As I said before, "Heat" is misused too
> often. Heat is the physical quantity which describes the energy transfer
> between two bodies at different temperatures.
>
> Ken, You are more than welcome to use the term 'cold' to describe a
> transfer of heat energy away from a body (when the final temperature of
the
> body is less than the initial temperature of the body), but I fear you
> would be in a vast minority and you would only succeed in confusing the
> majority.
>
> Also, the Eskimo probably thinks 0C is quite warm!
>
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2002 00:21
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: aus-wx: Re:
>
>
>
> > As stated earlier, *heat* is the energy which flows between a system and
> > it's environment due to a temperature difference between the two. In
> > mathematical terms...
> > Heat (Q) = C (T(final) - T(initial))
> I agree, but that's because the word "temperature" really refers
> etymologically to heating, and is therefore an inadequate term because
> falling temperature would in that sense be a contradiction. We need an
> unbiased word that can describe both heat rise and cold fall.
>
> > *Heat* is a physical quantity that is easily measured. There is no
> > equivalent for the concept of 'cold'.
> I would say that cold is also easily measured. We have something called a
> freezing point, we have ice, we know about thawing. If there was no
concept
> of cold we wouldn't be able to measure those.
>
> > The *temperature* of a body is a measure of the *internal energy* of
that
> > body. A change in temperature can only be brought about if a body either
> > transfers heat, does work or has work done on it.
> I agree. And if a body transfers heat we call it cooling. You have just
> allowed that a change of temperature may be cooling OR heating. So you
have
> just allowed for a concept for cold.
>
> > Heat can be positive negative or zero. Temperature (and hence internal
> > energy) can only be positive or zero (and even that is debatable). The
> > concept of internal energy is probably more applicable to Ken's argument
> > rather than heat.
> > The concepts of heat, temperature and internal energy are intertwined -
> and
> > easily confused! That is all that has happened here.
> I totally agree! But I think to say cold doesn't exist is a bit daft. I
> wonder what an eskimo would say to that suggestion.
> cheers
> Ken
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 21:56
> > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
> >
> >
> > Hi Kevin and all
> > Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the
> bottom
> > of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics
> sites.
> > I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking
> about
> > heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the
> disagreement
> > is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of
> > Thermodynamics
> > too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask
> Jeeves
> > and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.
> >
> > 1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
> > TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
> > distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
> > dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If
> the
> > temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
> > (Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and
> > cooling
> > have equal mathematical importance here..)
> >
> > 2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
> > (But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
> > moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the
> rules
> > of English the cold did move too. No?).
> >
> > 3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
> > meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
> > chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
> > increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
> > between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as
> the
> > opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai
> which
> > just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean
> > anything.
> > If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So
> not
> > much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the
> > degree
> > of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
> > hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
> > So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
> > cheers
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
> > Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
> >
> >
> > > Hi every1,
> > >
> > > Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
> > >
> > > There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal
> > energy
> > > as has already been noted)
> > >
> > > Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object
to
> > > another
> > >
> > > Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
> > AVERAGE
> > > kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
> > have
> > > gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
> > >
> > > Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative
> > momentum
> > > changes on a surface.
> > >
> > > Just my thoughts.
> > >
> > > The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> > > knowledgeable people to debate...
> > >
> > > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _________________________________________________________________
> > > Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > > http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >
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> > >  message.
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
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> >
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From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: Fridays hail storm
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:01:33 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>the story's ok exept the 
photos of melrose drive and dean st are the same.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>richard 
modistach</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- 
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A 
href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au" title=bussie at netc.net.au>Bussy</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com" 
title=aussie-weather at world.std.com>aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:26 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Fridays hail storm</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Link to the Border Mail (Albury/Wodonga newspaper) 
report on the hail storm with some good pics.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A 
href="http://www.bordermail.com.au/newsflow/pageitem?page_id=454382">http://www.bordermail.com.au/newsflow/pageitem?page_id=454382</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:46:50 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
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Hi Jane.
What  a fantastic series of photos showing your tornado, congratulations, I
think you have now bagged two! tornadoes in Victoria a very worthy effort,
three cheers for Jane, Hip Hip...................... regards Clyve H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jane ONeill <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: Aussie-wx <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:51 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


> Evening all,
>
> Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
> Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or 4
> minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps should
> be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
> rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
> know why, or is this called a coincidence?
>
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Cc: <swvic at bom.gov.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:59:53 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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Anthony Cornelius wrote elsewhere:
"I think this is a fantastic example why your eyes should be on the sky
all the time! Something like this can so easily be missed. I also wonder
how many other tornadoes may have occurred yesterday in Victoria and
southern NSW (although the main line of storms was a squall line I
believe)."

Anthony and all, I've also got a pan of 2 storms to the west just a bit
earlier than the Euroa event with one seeming to try to funnel, but if
it succeeded I didn't see it, and I also have shots of a convergence
line passing through Melbourne near 2pm with suspicious lowerings over
Vermont South (which I'll add later) - so I agree Anthony - I reckon
there might have been a few more in the area yesterday that weren't
spotted.  While rushing back to the car to get something yesterday I was
almost run over by 6 people riding their horses into Euroa - they could
clearly see what I was videoing and getting excited about, but they
weren't in the least bit interested, which begs the question, how may
tornadoes & funnels are seen and people say "oh yeah..." and that's the
end of it?????
Fortunately there are at least 3 eye witnesses of the Euroa tornado that
I have to ring today.

and if you'd like to have another look at the page below - I've put up
30 video captures this morning - I'm still linking the full sized images
but the thumbnails are there.
http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------





----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Matters" <pkmatters at bigpond.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


> Excellent stuff Jane! And right on my doorstep!!!!!!!
> I could see the cell from Monegeeta (family bday party). The sunlit
anvil
> looked quite impressive through the foreground Alrostratus. The
buildup was
> pushing the cap from around lunchtime with TCU and Congestus
everywhere.
> Peter
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:51 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
>
>
> > Evening all,
> >
> > Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in
northern
> > Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3
or 4
> > minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps
should
> > be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features,
like
> > rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> > structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> > became lightning active but not until ****after****
touchdown...anyone
> > know why, or is this called a coincidence?
> >
> > http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> >
> > Jane
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > ASWA - Victoria
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > --------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >  message.
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
-
>
>
>
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X-Sender: vk3jed-1 at 202.12.87.169
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 12:50:00 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 10:59 AM 4/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>and if you'd like to have another look at the page below - I've put up
>30 video captures this morning - I'm still linking the full sized images
>but the thumbnails are there.
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm

Where?  I just looked, and only last night's pics are there, no thumbnails. :(

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 12:58:13 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


More images from yesterday showing just how unstable conditions were,
and not just over Euroa - suspicious lowerings over Melbourne, possible
funnels west of Euroa, a horizontal incloud vapour vortex at sunset and
more lowerings after sunset, and another funnel....

http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3a_08_02.htm

Jane

--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:12:35 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 10:59 AM 4/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

I just posted that Jane's pics weren't online.  That turned out to be a 
mistake (must have been looking while she was uploading more).  They're all 
there now.  Enjoy!

Jane's URL for those who missed it

http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm



73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
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Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 13:16:25 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 12:58 PM 4/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>More images from yesterday showing just how unstable conditions were,
>and not just over Euroa - suspicious lowerings over Melbourne, possible
>funnels west of Euroa, a horizontal incloud vapour vortex at sunset and
>more lowerings after sunset, and another funnel....
>
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3a_08_02.htm

Thanks, some more excellent pics. :)

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 14:41:17 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Re: TS Kammuri slides to the south of Hong Kong
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See attached:
Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "Bruno Benjamin" <ouragans at wanadoo.fr>, "Carl Smith" <carls at ace-
net.com.au>, "Dickson Fu" <whfu at netvigator.com>, "Eric Blake" 
<eblake at typhoon.atmos.colostate.edu>, "Gary Padgett" 
<garyp at alaweb.com>, "Huang Chunliang" <huangchunliang at hotmail.com>, "Jean 
Marc de Maroussem" <kjmdm at intnet.mu>, "Jean Paul Hoarau" 
<jpghoarau at runnet.com>, "Jim Edds" <jimedds at bellsouth.net>, "Jim Leonard" 
<jmlcat-5 at ix.netcom.com>, "John Wallace" <dosidicus at aol.com>, "Jose 
Garcia" <huracanado_1 at hotmail.com>, "Karl Hoarau" 
<Khoarau at aol.com>, "Kevin Boyle" 
<newchapelobservatory at btinternet.com>, "Matthew Saxby" 
<mozzie at canberra.teknet.net.au>, "Michael Bath" 
<mbath at ozemail.com.au>, "Michael Pitt" 
<hurricanemike at qisfl.net>, "Michael V Padua" 
<michaelpadua at hotmail.com>, "Mike Theiss" 
<mike at ultimatechase.com>, "Patrick Hoareau" 
<patrick.hoareau7 at wanadoo.fr>, "Richard Henning" 
<richard.henning at eglin.af.mil>, "Simon Clarke" 
<simon_clarke at iprimus.com.au>, "Sin Kam Lung \(Eddie\)" 
<stormchaser_hk at yahoo.com.hk>, "Rolando Balotro" <bluewetnsalty at yahoo.com>
Cc: "Phil Smith at DRDISK" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>, "___Phil Smith at 
school" <smithp at ics.edu.hk>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 14:25:02 +0800
Subject: Re: TS Kammuri slides to the south of Hong Kong

Back from church and lunch now.  Rain has been more or less steady all
morning with just a few brief breaks.
There has been a little bit of gusty wind, but not really much to speak
of.
Steady light rain at present falling straight down (no wind) and limiting
visibility to about 800 metres.
14:00 obs from various parts of HK are:
<PRE>
Date/Time: 4/8/2002 14:00
Station        Temp RH   Max/Min  Dir/Speed Barometer HI
               (C)  (%)    (C)      (km/h)   (hPa)    (C)
----------------------------------------------------------
HK Observatory 27.1  89 27.8/26.0 ---/-----  992.3   
King's Park    27.1  84 ----/---- N  / 16.9  992.0   
Wong Chuk Hang 27.3  84 28.3/26.1 E  / 23.0 ------   
Ta Kwu Ling    26.3  97 29.6/26.2 ---/ 13.0  992.7   
Lau Fau Shan   29.3  74 29.6/26.7 N  / 32.0  992.0    34.2
Tai Po         28.6  77 29.5/26.9 ---/-----  992.7    33.1
Sha Tin        27.9  84 28.6/26.3 N  / 13.0  992.5   
Tuen Mun       28.9  79 29.7/26.4 N  / 10.0 ------    34.3
Tseung Kwan O  26.3  92 27.5/25.4 N  / 15.0 ------   
Sai Kung       26.7  88 28.0/25.5 N  / 29.0 ------   
Cheung Chau    27.5  83 28.5/25.4 N  / 27.0  991.8   
Chek Lap Kok   28.3  87 31.5/26.6 E  / 16.0  992.3    34.1
Tsing Yi       27.9  78 29.2/26.1 N  / 26.0 ------   
Shek Kong      26.9  98 29.5/26.1 ---/-----  992.4   
</PRE>
Here in Sha Tin where I live the wind is measured at 13.0 km/h from the
North but it is calm outside my windows.  There isn't a leaf stirring on
the trees ATM.  Temp is 27.9C, RH is 84%, presure is now down to 992.5
HPa.
The heavy clouds are still racing across the sky from N to S and while
typing only a couple of sentences the rain has stopped and I can see
clear to the mountains.
Latest warning from the HKO is pasted:
==============
Bulletin issued at 14:06 HKT 04/Aug/2002 
TROPICAL CYCLONE BULLETIN

Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Advisory Bulletin
issued by the Hong Kong Observatory.

A Tropical Cyclone Alert is now in effect and the Standby Signal,
No. 1 has been issued.
This means that a Tropical Cyclone now centred within about 800
kilometres of Hong Kong may affect us.

At 2 p.m., Tropical Storm Kammuri was estimated to be about
170 kilometres south-southeast of Hong Kong (near 21.0
degrees north 115.0 degrees east). It is forecast to move on
a northerly track at about 8 kilometres per hour edging towards
the coast of Guangdong.

During the past one to two hours, Tropical Storm Kammuri
appeared to move on a more northerly track. When Kammuri edges
closer to Hong Kong later today, winds inside the harbour will
strengthen and issuance of the Strong Wind Signal No.3 may be
needed.

(1)
Some precautions against damage should be taken now, gutters and
drains should be cleared of obstructions. Hinges, bolts, locks
and shutters of windows and doors should be checked.

(2)
People living in wooden huts and in low-lying areas should take
necessary precautions against strong winds and flooding.

(3)
If you are planning to visit Macau, any of the off-shore
islands or remote parts of Hong Kong, you are reminded that
changes in weather may affect your plans.

(4)
Since sea state may be rough, you are advised to stay
away from the shoreline and not to engage in water sports.

(5)
Owners of shop signs, advertisements and TV aerials which
overhang public thoroughfares or which are situated on tops of
buildings should make sure that the fastenings and framework of
these structures are secured.

(6)
Listen to your radio or watch your TV for further weather
information.
================
As there is really not much danger from the wind at present, 
I suspect it will be a while yet before Signal number Three is hoisted.
More later.

Phil
<><
 
Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong
 
Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Simon Clarke 
  To: Rolando Balotro ; Sin Kam Lung (Eddie) ; Simon Clarke ; Richard
Henning ; Phil Smith ; Patrick Hoareau ; Mike Theiss ; Michael V Padua ;
Michael Pitt ; Michael Bath ; Matthew Saxby ; Kevin Boyle ; Karl Hoarau ;
Jose Garcia ; John Wallace ; Jim Leonard ; Jim Edds ; Jean Paul Hoarau ;
Jean Marc de Maroussem ; Huang Chunliang ; Gary Padgett ; Eric Blake ;
Dickson Fu ; Carl Smith ; Bruno Benjamin 
  Sent: Sunday, 04 August, 2002 14:02
  Subject: TS Kammuri slides to the south of Hong Kong


  Looking forward to your updates Phil


  Regards
  Simon

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From: "Mark Hardy" <mhardy at theweather.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 18:10:42 +1000
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Ken,
Do you call rain falling within 350km close? If that's your margin of
error then you will certainly end up with an impressive accuracy rate.
But seriously, I would have thought there would at least have to be
measurable rain in the town itself before you could verify it as a
correct forecast. How close does the rain need to be before you give
your forecast a big tick.

I also want to add that the report of 26mm at Mintabie was almost
certainly incorrect. There has been no rain in northern SA for almost
three months. You can see the past 7 days of rainfall here:
http://www.weatherzone.com.au/misc/climate.jsp?chart=1_week_Rain_Totals&
state=SA



Mark Hardy
The Weather Company Pty. Ltd.
http://www.theweather.com.au


-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Saturday, 3 August 2002 10:06 AM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs


Hi Duncan and all
Thanks for that report. I'm certainly pleased rain fell somewhere in the
general area as I predicted. Bear in mind I was going off historical
reports by some person but I have no idea who wrote it or where that
person happened to be standing with respect to the general area. All I
did was access the time to look at the report. Moon data led me right to
the time. That's one reason I ask for a 24 hr error. He/she might have
been reporting the next day. So the next question is, was it coincidence
that I got so close? And the next question, how many coincidences = a
theory? regards Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Duncan & Mandy" <duncman at octa4.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 3:46 AM
Subject: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs


> G'day Ken,
> You mentioned at the start of the week that Alice Springs should get 
> rain
on
> the 31st July, 1st & 2nd August, and have mentioned in other emails of

> allowing for a 24 hour error rate each side of dates predicted. I have
been
> following your formula of lunar forecasts with interest - there are 
> many reasons for and against your methods - and this forecast of yours

> would be an excellent and tough test, as we haven't had any rain since

> 23rd May (3mm), and none before that since February. In fact, we've 
> had only about
2
> days since May (from memory) where there has been some cloud cover. 
> And
the
> usual weather patterns prevailed this week - the days actually became
warmer
> over your prediction period - today (2nd July) it was Fine and 26C, 
> yesterday it was Fine and 27C. Anyone who can attempt long term daily 
> forecasts in an unpredictable region such as this (especially 
> forecasting rain in a desert winter) and be successful certainly has a

> talent! But having said this, I noticed on the South Australian 
> Observations that Mintabie, about an hour West of Marla in S.A.'s far 
> North, and a place
that
> has similar weather (and lunar) patterns to Alice Springs, did indeed 
> receive rainfall - 26mm on 1st August! So I am none the wiser on how 
> accurate your forecasts are. Perhaps the sceptics (I am still one, but

> less so after this week) may become believers if you can deliver 
> accurate forecasts on a fairly regular basis for regions that have 
> very unpredictable weather. Desert regions certainly fall into this 
> category. I feel that regions that receive
frontal
> rainfall weather can be fairly easy to predict by working out averages

> and doing some number crunching, as others on this list have 
> suggested. Predicting how much rain that falls is the hard question. 
> But to predict when it rains in somewhere like Mintabie is 
> unbelievable, more so if this can be done regularly. Please everyone 
> get off the physics lessons - reminds me too much of
boring
> (for me) physics classes at school!
> Cheers,
> Duncan Treloar
> Alice Springs
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 9:51 am
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > Richard
> > I am satisfied with my hit rate, as must be others as my free ezine 
> > list
> has
> > risen from nothing to over 800 in about a year. The thing is, 
> > evaluation
> is
> > rather subjective. An Auckland secondary school group(St 
> > Cuthberts)for a science project studied me for three months and gave

> > me 87%. Others have said 75-80%. Only one group for some reason seem

> > to find my accuracy is
> low
> > level - meteorologists. It all comes down to what someone calls a 
> > dry or
> wet
> > day. I don't even like to identify days, only trends or 3-4 day 
> > windows.
> If
> > it comes down to a day then I ask for a 24hr potential error, which
still
> > ends up as a 3-4 day window. This because I think in the past that 
> > was
all
> > that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming 
> > this week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be 
> > somewhere at 2
> oclock
> > next friday! That's why I try to steer people toward my isobaric 
> > maps,
> which
> > is what I first arrive at in my calculations. After that it comes 
> > down
to
> > interpretation. When I say maps I mean those from the past that I 
> > come
up
> > with and can point to and say will probably repeat on a given future
day.
> > cheers
> > Ken
> > www.predictweather.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:45 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> >
> >
> > > ken,
> > >
> > > i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you
been
> > > getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks
obs.
> > > whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be 
> > > sacked,
> thats
> > > dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole

> > > lot
> on
> > > the internet.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> > >
> > >
> > > > David
> > > > First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or 
> > > > not
> > > anymore.
> > > > Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I 
> > > > answer
> > about
> > > > 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I 
> > > > would
> > > rather
> > > > not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. 
> > > > Not
the
> > > > regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple 
> > > > of
days
> > > > ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in
1998,
> > out
> > > > of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official

> > > > forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on 
> > > > the
23rd
> > on
> > > > this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth 
> > > > between
> > 27-29,
> > > > clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some 
> > > > who
> would
> > > find
> > > > that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then
there
> > > would
> > > > be others who would rush to random number generators in order to
> satisfy
> > > > themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't 
> > > > have
to
> > > > convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have 
> > > > described
it
> > for
> > > > anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
> > > >
> > > > As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the
> trouble
> > > to
> > > > read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the
theory
> > of
> > > > lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that

> > > > we
> can
> > > get
> > > > into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most 
> > > > vehement
> > critics
> > > > are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise
> > themselves
> > > > with where I am coming from, but because they think they are
> scientists
> > > they
> > > > assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise 
> > > > this
> is
> > > > left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from
Copernicus
> > > down.
> > > > In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, 
> > > > even Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men

> > > > who were
> the
> > > > founding fathers of modern science - all would have described
> themselves
> > > as
> > > > astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there
should
> be
> > > > always room for new approaches and reform.
> > > >
> > > > I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist,
whatever
> > that
> > > > is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think 
> > > > meteorology
> can
> > > > adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths 
> > > > and astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 
> > > > years,
watching
> > the
> > > > moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on 
> > > > the
> > subject
> > > > makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be 
> > > > an unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with 
> > > > someone who
> > hasn't
> > > > read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any 
> > > > data
> that
> > > > related to the moon.
> > > >
> > > > After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that

> > > > our rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called 
> > > > the
Nodal
> > > Cycle,
> > > > the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon 
> > > > does,
nor
> is
> > > > phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the 
> > > > moon's
> > > behaviour
> > > > other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet,
completely
> > > > cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
> > > >
> > > > I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on
> > 'profound',
> > > as
> > > > interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. 
> > > > If I
> say
> > > dry
> > > > and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it

> > > > was
a
> > dry
> > > > day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for
> someone
> > > > then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to
accept
> > re
> > > > August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over 
> > > > before
> > passing
> > > > judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make
> mistakes -
> > > > that's how we learn.
> > > >
> > > > It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage 
> > > > over
> me
> > in
> > > > that you are paid to do research and have free access to 
> > > > historical
> data
> > > and
> > > > multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources 
> > > > and
have
> > to
> > > > earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to 
> > > > pay
> > > through
> > > > the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They 
> > > > screw me
> and
> > > > it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on 
> > > > newspapers
> > from
> > > > the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more
> fantastic.
> > > > best wishes
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > > > To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> > > > Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> > > > Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Ken,
> > > > >
> > > > > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken
> > seriously,
> > > > can
> > > > > you please explain.
> > > > >
> > > > > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the
phase
> > of
> > > > the
> > > > > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to 
> > > > > your
> > > > prediction
> > > > > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior 
> > > > > this
> year
> > > that
> > > > > leads you to believe that the August through November period
should
> > only
> > > > get
> > > > > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within

> > > > > the
> > > driest
> > > > > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest 
> > > > > such
> > period
> > > on
> > > > > record.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently
> enduring
> > > > > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good
> scientific
> > > > theory
> > > > > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > David
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dr David Jones
> > > > >
> > > > > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > > > > National Climate Centre
> > > > > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > > > > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085 Victoria

> > > > > 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923 email : 
> > > > > D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >
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> > > > > body
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> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
 
-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
>
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>
-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
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-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >  
> >
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X-Originating-IP: [144.132.18.241]
From: "Liam Domanski" <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Jane's Tornado
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 18:54:11 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Aug 2002 08:54:12.0042 (UTC) FILETIME=[80B63AA0:01C23B94]
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<x-flowed>
Rock on Jane!!!

Well done!!   Looking forward to seeing the footage at the next VIC meeting.

Let's hope for more to come!

GO VIC!!!!




Liam

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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</x-flowed>
From: "Peter Matters" <pkmatters at bigpond.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fridays hail storm
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:06:49 +1000
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On Friday</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2> I was 
woken by thunder at 0800. A small cell had passed over Broadford heading south, 
from which I videod some weak rotation. Lightning was infrequent (&gt;1 Min 
apart), but I saw inflow scud from the north and west.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peter</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=bussie at netc.net.au href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au">Bussy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:56 
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Fridays hail storm</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Link to the Border Mail (Albury/Wodonga 
  newspaper) report on the hail storm with some good pics.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A 
  href="http://www.bordermail.com.au/newsflow/pageitem?page_id=454382">http://www.bordermail.com.au/newsflow/pageitem?page_id=454382</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Mark Dwyer" <mjd at iinet.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:21:18 +0800
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Hi Jane,

Good question there Jane, As this was the same with the Thornlie Tornado,
back in the winter of 2000.

MJ.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:51 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


Evening all,

Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or 4
minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps should
be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
know why, or is this called a coincidence?

http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm

Jane

--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------






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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:36:30 +1000
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Mark & all,

After speaking to 3 locals this afternoon and reviewing the video (9
minutes worth), I realised that the lightning had originated just above
the wall cloud and had left the cloud and doubled back almost instantly
just above the tornado - I'll try to get a video still of it.

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------





----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dwyer" <mjd at iinet.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


> Hi Jane,
>
> Good question there Jane, As this was the same with the Thornlie
Tornado,
> back in the winter of 2000.
>
> MJ.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:51 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
>
>
> Evening all,
>
> Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
> Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or
4
> minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps
should
> be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
> rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
> know why, or is this called a coincidence?
>
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Mark Dwyer" <mjd at iinet.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:17:21 +0800
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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Hi Jane,

Cool, yeah cause on the Thornlie event, I seen the lightning strike occur,
and the cell was moving that fast as they do in winter, it was like one
flash, bang and it was gone... And after talking to the locals about the
time the tornado occurred, the lightning occurred during the time the
tornado was already on the ground be it that was very long either.

MJ.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


Mark & all,

After speaking to 3 locals this afternoon and reviewing the video (9
minutes worth), I realised that the lightning had originated just above
the wall cloud and had left the cloud and doubled back almost instantly
just above the tornado - I'll try to get a video still of it.

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------





----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Dwyer" <mjd at iinet.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria


> Hi Jane,
>
> Good question there Jane, As this was the same with the Thornlie
Tornado,
> back in the winter of 2000.
>
> MJ.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:51 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
>
>
> Evening all,
>
> Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in northern
> Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 or
4
> minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps
should
> be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
> rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> became lightning active but not until ****after**** touchdown...anyone
> know why, or is this called a coincidence?
>
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------




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Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 20:46:45 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Saturday evening report from HK
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
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See attached report:

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 20:42:52 +0800
Subject: Saturday evening report from HK

The centre of Tropical Storm KAMMURI is currently about 129 km (81 miles)
South East of here.
Still only Typhoon Signal One (Stand By) here at 20:00.  That's
surprising, as I have just been outside in it and nearly blown away.  I
went up to the Baptist University Quarters up on top of the mountain
overlooking our home and at about 19:00 up there it was blowing so hard
that it was difficult to stand still without holding on to something. 
The rain was torrential and blowing almost horizontally in under the
carport.
As we came back down the hill there had already been one very minor
landslide and the road was flooded in many places.  Maximum wind speed
recored at Sha Tin AWS (down in the rather sheltered valley) was only 24
km/h.
By 19:30 the rain had stopped again and the wind had died down.  
All afternoon there has been one squall following another. 
I have just added the graphs from the HKO's AWS to my page at
http://www.drdisk.com.hk/kammuri.htm for those interested in the details.
 I shall attempt to add some written details to the page a little later.

Obs at 20:10 for all parts of HK were: 
<PRE>
Date/Time: 4/8/2002 20:10
Station        Temp RH   Max/Min  Dir/Speed Barometer HI
               (C)  (%)    (C)      (km/h)   (hPa)    (C)
----------------------------------------------------------
HK Observatory 26.7  89 28.4/25.9 ---/-----  991.2   
King's Park    26.7  82 ----/---- N  / 17.3  990.9   
Wong Chuk Hang 27.2  80 28.8/26.1 VRB/ 10.0 ------   
Ta Kwu Ling    28.5  85 29.6/26.2 ---/ 22.0  991.5    34.3
Lau Fau Shan   28.6  75 29.6/26.2 N  / 35.0  991.3    32.7
Tai Po         29.3  67 30.3/26.9 ---/-----  991.4    32.8
Sha Tin        27.4  84 29.4/26.3 N  / 12.0  991.4   
Tuen Mun       29.2  71 29.9/26.4 N  / 11.0 ------    33.4
Tseung Kwan O  26.1  89 27.5/25.4 N  / 15.0 ------   
Sai Kung       26.4  88 28.8/25.5 N  / 24.0 ------   
Cheung Chau    26.6  82 28.5/25.4 N  / 21.0  991.3   
Chek Lap Kok   29.6  67 31.5/26.6 N  / 16.0  991.7    33.4
Tsing Yi       27.5  77 29.2/26.1 N  / 13.0 ------   
Shek Kong      28.0  86 29.5/26.1 ---/-----  991.3    33.1
</PRE>
Here is the most recent HKO warning:
==============
Bulletin issued at 19:46 HKT 04/Aug/2002 
TROPICAL CYCLONE BULLETIN

Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Advisory Bulletin
issued by the Hong Kong Observatory.

A Tropical Cyclone Alert is now in effect and the Standby Signal,
No. 1 has been issued.
This means that a Tropical Cyclone now centred within about 800
kilometres of Hong Kong may affect us.

At 8 p.m., Tropical Storm Kammuri was estimated to be about
130 kilometres southeast of Hong Kong (near 21.6 degrees
north 115.2 degrees east). It is forecast to move north at
about 10 kilometres per hour edging towards the coast of
Guangdong.
===============
And here is their previous Bulletin:
=================
Bulletin issued at 19:10 HKT 04/Aug/2002 TROPICAL CYCLONE BULLETIN

Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Advisory Bulletin
issued by the Hong Kong Observatory.

A Tropical Cyclone Alert is now in effect and the Standby Signal,
No. 1 has been issued.
This means that a Tropical Cyclone now centred within about 800
kilometres of Hong Kong may affect us.

At 7 p.m., Tropical Storm Kammuri was estimated to be about
140 kilometres southeast of Hong Kong (near 21.5 degrees
north 115.2 degrees east). It is forecast to move north at
about 10 kilometres per hour edging towards the coast of
Guangdong.

Winds over Hong Kong now are generally northerlies. Although
Kammuri is edging closer slowly, winds inside the harbour have
not yet strengthened significantly due to terrain sheltering.

According to the present forecast track for Kammuri, issuance
of the Strong Wind Signal No.3 may still be required overnight.

During the past hour, the mean wind speed recorded at Waglan
Island was 52 kilometres per hour and that recorded at Cheung
Chau was 31 kilometres per hour.

(1)
Some precautions against damage should be taken now, gutters and
drains should be cleared of obstructions. Hinges, bolts, locks
and shutters of windows and doors should be checked.

(2)
People living in wooden huts and in low-lying areas should take
necessary precautions against strong winds and flooding.

(3)
If you are planning to visit Macau, any of the off-shore
islands or remote parts of Hong Kong, you are reminded that
changes in weather may affect your plans.

(4)
Listen to your radio or watch your TV for further weather
information.
=================The observatory's most recent forecast track places the
storm closest to HK at about 09:00 or 10:00 tomorrow morning local
time.
More later.
Phil
<>< 
Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong 

Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 20:54:23 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
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Lightning always seems to precede tornados because they tend to be near 
the back of the storm.  However I have seen pretty active lightning all 
around a tornado while it is happening.
But seeing a tornado in the dark of night is the best of all: it glows 
from the electrical activity that is going on inside the tornado.  
Actually I have only seen this once, so it might not be the norm.  It is 
certainly spectacular though.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 21:36:30 +1000
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria

> Mark & all,
> 
> After speaking to 3 locals this afternoon and reviewing the video (9
> minutes worth), I realised that the lightning had originated just above
> the wall cloud and had left the cloud and doubled back almost instantly
> just above the tornado - I'll try to get a video still of it.
> 
> Jane
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> 
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> 
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Dwyer" <mjd at iinet.net.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:21 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
> 
> 
> > Hi Jane,
> >
> > Good question there Jane, As this was the same with the Thornlie
> Tornado,
> > back in the winter of 2000.
> >
> > MJ.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 7:51 PM
> > Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
> >
> >
> > Evening all,
> >
> > Images taken between 1604 & 1618 just to the east of Euroa in
> northern
> > Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3
> or
> 4
> > minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps
> should
> > be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, like
> > rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing & the internal
> > structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm
> > became lightning active but not until ****after****
> touchdown...anyone
> > know why, or is this called a coincidence?
> >
> > http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> >
> > Jane
> >
> > --------------------------------
> > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > ASWA - Victoria
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > --------------------------------
> 
> 
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
> -

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 20:58:54 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING
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Yeah, I had forgotten about that one, Chas.  When I was in the Learmonth 
Young Farmers Club donkey's years ago, there were some characters there 
who swore by that saying too.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Chas & Helen Osborn" <hosborn at tassie.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 18:45:12 +1000
Subject: Re: aus-wx: A WEATHER SAYING

> 
> 
> 
> > When I was a kid in Victoria 50 years ago, the oldies all had a
> saying
> > that if it rained on
> 
> When I was a kid in Western Australia 40 years ago, the oldies had a
> saying
> that if it did not rain by the full moon it will not rain till the new
> moon.
> This was important for the break of the season for putting the wheat
> crop
> in.
> 
> Chas
> Strahan Tasmania
> 
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
> -

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Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 00:50:24 +1000
From: Peter Creswick <ventus45 at ihug.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: BoM comms computer upgrades
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Just saw this on a BoM data page I use.
"Please note between 11:15am and 12:15pm on Monday, the 5th of August,
(that is, for one hour) there will be no feed of data to the Bureau's
web and ftp servers, although the servers themselves will still be
on-line and available.  This is due to a major upgrade of the Bureau's
communications computers. "

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: David.Carroll at CountryEnergy.com.au
Subject: aus-wx: Hail Report - Local Paper
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7  March 21, 2001
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:16:05 +1000
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on CENTRAL01/Servers/Country Energy(Release 5.07a |May
 14, 2001) at 05/08/2002 09:15:58 AM
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http://www.bathurst.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=local&story_id=169359&category=general%20news

HI all.

Report and pic of hail in Bathurst at this above website.

Dave




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This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain confidential 
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sender. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, and are 
not necessarily the views of Country Energy.
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Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 08:00:50 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: 16W Kammuri upgraded to STS
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See attached:

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 07:59:27 +0800
Subject: 16W Kammuri upgraded to STS

Both JMA and HKO have upgraded storm 16W KAMMURI to a Severe Tropical
Storm.  It should soon make landfall near Shanwei, China.
Its centre is currently about 177 km (110 miles) ENE of here.
The wind got noisy enough to wake me a couple of times during the night,
but I think that was because neighbours had not "battened down their
hatches" and loose objects were clattering about.  Certainly there has
not been another wind peak recorded to equal the squall I mentioned last
night.
This morning I awoke around 06:00 and noticed that the low clouds were
now scudding across from West to East.  The higher clouds above them are
moving from South to North.  I looked at the AWS and it claimed the wind
was from the North!  I looked out at the trees, which were swaying
mightily, and they clearly indicated a Westerly wind.  It took nearly an
hour for the AWS to catch up with the wind direction.  See my posting at
http://www.weather.org.hk/discus/messages/1/3750.html?MondayAugust5200207
37am where several AWS outputs have been captured. (You may have to cut
and paste and reassemble that URL, depending on your e-mail program).
The wind is now variable from the West to the South West judging from the
clouds and the trees, since the AWS appears to be erratic.
After I send this, I shall update the graphs on my page at
http://www.drdisk.com.hk/kammuri.htm and I may start to add some written
reports there, if I get time.
Since 06:00 there has been one brief squall but all is quiet at the
moment.
Here are the current obs for all of HK:
<PRE>
Date/Time: 5/8/2002 07:40
Station        Temp RH   Max/Min  Dir/Speed Barometer HI
               (C)  (%)    (C)      (km/h)   (hPa)    (C)
----------------------------------------------------------
HK Observatory 26.8  83 27.8/25.1 ---/-----  992.4   
King's Park    26.4  80 ----/---- W  / 11.9  992.2   
Wong Chuk Hang 27.3  79 27.7/25.7 N  / 14.0 ------   
Ta Kwu Ling    25.3  96 27.3/24.4 ---/  6.0  992.2   
Lau Fau Shan   27.5  79 27.8/26.0 N  / 41.0  992.0   
Tai Po         27.4  77 28.2/26.0 ---/-----  992.0   
Sha Tin        27.6  76 27.6/25.7 VRB/  8.0  992.4   
Tuen Mun       27.4  83 27.9/25.8 N  / 15.0 ------   
Tseung Kwan O  25.7  90 26.7/24.8 S  /  7.0 ------   
Sai Kung       27.2  76 27.3/25.2 W  / 17.0 ------   
Cheung Chau    25.9  83 26.5/24.7 N  / 38.0  992.5   
Chek Lap Kok   27.7  80 28.2/27.0 W  / 30.0  992.7   
Tsing Yi       ---- --- ----/---- ---/----- ------   
Shek Kong      25.6  99 27.6/24.6 ---/-----  992.4   

</PRE>
As you can see the wind at Sha Tin is described as VRB (variable) which
is in agreement with my visual obs.  It is varying constantly between W
and SW.
And here is the latest HKO warning:
===============
Bulletin issued at 06:57 HKT 05/Aug/2002 
TROPICAL CYCLONE BULLETIN

Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Advisory Bulletin
issued by the Hong Kong Observatory.

A Tropical Cyclone Alert is now in effect and the Standby Signal,
No. 1 has been issued.

At 7 a.m., Severe Tropical Storm Kammuri was estimated to
be about 180 kilometres east-northeast of Hong Kong (near
22.9 degrees north 115.8 degrees east). It is forecast to
move north-northeast at about 14 kilometres per hour into
inland Guangdong.

Kammuri is making landfall near Shanwei and will weaken gradually over
land. The chance of Hong Kong being affected by general strong winds
and hence the chance of the Strong Wind Signal No.3 gradually diminish.

As the active southwesterly monsoon associated with
Kammuri will affect Hong Kong later today, local weather is
expected to deteriorate with squalls and heavy rain.

(1)
Listen to your radio or watch your TV for further weather
information.
===============
My expectation would be that the Typhoon Signal Number One (Stand By) may
be replaced by the Strong Monsoon Signal (meaning Gale Force Winds) at
some stage during the day today.

More later.

Phil
<><
 
Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong
 
Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: lunar forecasts and Alice Springs
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 10:21:20 +1000 (EST)
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> 
> I also want to add that the report of 26mm at Mintabie was almost
> certainly incorrect. There has been no rain in northern SA for almost
> three months. You can see the past 7 days of rainfall here:
> http://www.weatherzone.com.au/misc/climate.jsp?chart=1_week_Rain_Totals&
> state=SA
> 

Other sites in the region got a little bit of rain on the 2nd
(0.8 at Marla, 2.0 at Coober Pedy). Marla is about 35km from Mintabie.
That sort of rainfall gradient isn't unknown in a thunderstorm 
situation (and I'm not sure whether there were any about or not),
so I'm not prepared to rule the Mintabie observation out without
further evidence, but I think it more likely that the actual reading
was 2.6, not 26.

I'm not going to buy into the argument as to whether or not 0.8mm
at Marla verifies a forecast of rain for the Alice Springs region.

Blair
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Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 13:29:21 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Last report on Kammuri from HK
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See attached:

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:22:42 +0800
Subject: Last report on Kammuri from HK

The whole sky is covered with thin high cloud and hardly any clouds are
blowing across at lower levels.  The trees outside my window are
perfectly still with not a leaf stirring.
I think it's all over.
HKO lowered all signals at 11:30.
Here's the latest obs:
<PRE>
Date/Time: 5/8/2002 13:00
Station        Temp RH   Max/Min  Dir/Speed Barometer HI
               (C)  (%)    (C)      (km/h)   (hPa)    (C)
----------------------------------------------------------
HK Observatory 28.9  73 29.0/25.1 ---/-----  994.1    33.1
King's Park    28.9  72 ----/---- W  / 11.2  993.7    32.9
Wong Chuk Hang 28.6  81 28.7/25.7 N  / 16.0 ------    33.8
Ta Kwu Ling    29.2  88 29.2/24.4 ---/ 12.0  993.5    37.3
Lau Fau Shan   28.6  81 28.8/26.0 W  / 21.0  993.7    33.8
Tai Po         29.4  68 29.4/26.0 ---/-----  993.5    33.2
Sha Tin        29.4  73 29.5/25.7 S  /  8.0  994.0    34.3
Tuen Mun       29.6  70 30.0/25.8 N  / 21.0 ------    34.1
Tseung Kwan O  27.7  82 28.0/24.8 S  /  5.0 ------   
Sai Kung       28.8  77 28.8/25.2 W  /  9.0 ------    33.6
Cheung Chau    27.6  88 29.1/24.7 W  / 33.0  994.3   
Chek Lap Kok   30.2  69 30.6/26.8 N  /  9.0  994.2    35.3
Tsing Yi       ---- --- ----/---- ---/----- ------   
Shek Kong      29.8  82 29.8/24.6 ---/-----  993.7    37.6
</PRE>
And the Final warning from the HKO is pasted below:
===============
Bulletin issued at 12:05 HKT 05/Aug/2002 
Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Bulletin issued by the
Hong Kong Observatory.

All signals were cancelled at 11:30 a.m.

Kammuri is weakening quickly and continue to move away from Hong
Kong.

The active southwesterly monsoon associated with Kammuri will
affect Hong Kong later today, local weather will deteriorate
with squalls and heavy rain.
===============
The thunderstorm warning was hoisted at 13:05 and there are just a few
spots of rain sprinkling down now.
As I said above, all is quiet, I think it is all over.
This will be the last report on this storm unless something exceptional
occurs.
Phil
<><
 
Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong
 
Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [152.91.9.49]
From: "michael king" <mskikey at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 15:50:22 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2002 05:50:22.0657 (UTC) FILETIME=[FD196310:01C23C43]
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<x-html>
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>Jane</P>
<P>Were you able to ascertain&nbsp;to what height&nbsp;the tornado's parent cloud extened to?</P>
<P>If you were, did you get any pictures of the entire complex?</P>
<P>Michael<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Jane ONeill" <CADENCE at STORMCHASERS.AU.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;CC: <SWVIC at BOM.GOV.AU>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:59:53 +1000 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Anthony Cornelius wrote elsewhere: 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;"I think this is a fantastic example why your eyes should be on the sky 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;all the time! Something like this can so easily be missed. I also wonder 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;how many other tornadoes may have occurred yesterday in Victoria and 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;southern NSW (although the main line of storms was a squall line I 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;believe)." 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Anthony and all, I've also got a pan of 2 storms to the west just a bit 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;earlier than the Euroa event with one seeming to try to funnel, but if 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;it succeeded I didn't see it, and I also have shots of a convergence 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;line passing through Melbourne near 2pm with suspicious lowerings over 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Vermont South (which I'll add later) - so I agree Anthony - I reckon 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;there might have been a few more in the area yesterday that weren't 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;spotted. While rushing back to the car to get something yesterday I was 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;almost run over by 6 people riding their horses into Euroa - they could 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;clearly see what I was videoing and getting excited about, but they 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;weren't in the least bit interested, which begs the question, how may 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;tornadoes &amp; funnels are seen and people say "oh yeah..." and that's the 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;end of it????? 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Fortunately there are at least 3 eye witnesses of the Euroa tornado that 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;I have to ring today. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;and if you'd like to have another look at the page below - I've put up 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;30 video captures this morning - I'm still linking the full sized images 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;but the thumbnails are there. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Jane 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;-------------------------------- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Jane ONeill - Melbourne 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Melbourne Storm Chasers 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.stormchasers.au.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;ASWA - Victoria 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.severeweather.asn.au 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;-------------------------------- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;----- Original Message ----- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Peter Matters" <PKMATTERS at BIGPOND.COM.AU>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:15 AM 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Excellent stuff Jane! And right on my doorstep!!!!!!! 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; I could see the cell from Monegeeta (family bday party). The sunlit 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;anvil 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; looked quite impressive through the foreground Alrostratus. The 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;buildup was 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; pushing the cap from around lunchtime with TCU and Congestus 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;everywhere. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Peter 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message ----- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; From: "Jane ONeill" <CADENCE at STORMCHASERS.AU.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; To: "Aussie-wx" <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:51 PM 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Evening all, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Images taken between 1604 &amp; 1618 just to the east of Euroa in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;northern 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still there for another 3 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;or 4 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain shaft. Video snaps 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;should 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other interesting features, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;like 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing &amp; the internal 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; structure, none of which I managed to capture on these stills. Storm 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; became lightning active but not until ****after**** 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;touchdown...anyone 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; know why, or is this called a coincidence? 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Jane 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Jane ONeill - Melbourne 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Melbourne Storm Chasers 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.stormchasers.au.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; ASWA - Victoria 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.severeweather.asn.au 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;to:majordomo at world.std.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;your 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; message. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au----------------------------- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;to:majordomo at world.std.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;your 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; message. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au---------------------------- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;-- 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt; message. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ 
<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENAU/c156??PI=44314'>Click Here</a><br></html>
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</x-html>
From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fwd: Last report on Kammuri from HK
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:27:15 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2002 06:29:07.0887 (UTC) FILETIME=[670B53F0:01C23C49]
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Hi Phil.
The central region of this tropical storm appears to be northeast of Hong
Kong and moving inland, not far away though!, you seem to be under the
south-western cirrus outflow region. regards Clyve H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Phil Smith <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 3:29 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Last report on Kammuri from HK


> See attached:
>
> Phil
> <><
>
> International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
> Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
> Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
> To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
> Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 13:22:42 +0800
> Subject: Last report on Kammuri from HK
>
> The whole sky is covered with thin high cloud and hardly any clouds are
> blowing across at lower levels.  The trees outside my window are
> perfectly still with not a leaf stirring.
> I think it's all over.
> HKO lowered all signals at 11:30.
> Here's the latest obs:
> <PRE>
> Date/Time: 5/8/2002 13:00
> Station        Temp RH   Max/Min  Dir/Speed Barometer HI
>                (C)  (%)    (C)      (km/h)   (hPa)    (C)
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> HK Observatory 28.9  73 29.0/25.1 ---/-----  994.1    33.1
> King's Park    28.9  72 ----/---- W  / 11.2  993.7    32.9
> Wong Chuk Hang 28.6  81 28.7/25.7 N  / 16.0 ------    33.8
> Ta Kwu Ling    29.2  88 29.2/24.4 ---/ 12.0  993.5    37.3
> Lau Fau Shan   28.6  81 28.8/26.0 W  / 21.0  993.7    33.8
> Tai Po         29.4  68 29.4/26.0 ---/-----  993.5    33.2
> Sha Tin        29.4  73 29.5/25.7 S  /  8.0  994.0    34.3
> Tuen Mun       29.6  70 30.0/25.8 N  / 21.0 ------    34.1
> Tseung Kwan O  27.7  82 28.0/24.8 S  /  5.0 ------
> Sai Kung       28.8  77 28.8/25.2 W  /  9.0 ------    33.6
> Cheung Chau    27.6  88 29.1/24.7 W  / 33.0  994.3
> Chek Lap Kok   30.2  69 30.6/26.8 N  /  9.0  994.2    35.3
> Tsing Yi       ---- --- ----/---- ---/----- ------
> Shek Kong      29.8  82 29.8/24.6 ---/-----  993.7    37.6
> </PRE>
> And the Final warning from the HKO is pasted below:
> ===============
> Bulletin issued at 12:05 HKT 05/Aug/2002
> Here is the latest Tropical Cyclone Bulletin issued by the
> Hong Kong Observatory.
>
> All signals were cancelled at 11:30 a.m.
>
> Kammuri is weakening quickly and continue to move away from Hong
> Kong.
>
> The active southwesterly monsoon associated with Kammuri will
> affect Hong Kong later today, local weather will deteriorate
> with squalls and heavy rain.
> ===============
> The thunderstorm warning was hoisted at 13:05 and there are just a few
> spots of rain sprinkling down now.
> As I said above, all is quiet, I think it is all over.
> This will be the last report on this storm unless something exceptional
> occurs.
> Phil
> <><
>
> Phil Smith
> Director
> Doctor Disk Limited
> 17C Carmel Heights
> Belair Gardens
> Shatin, NT
> Hong Kong
>
> Phone: +852 9522 7756
> E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:29:17 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Hi Michael &amp; all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>That particular severe multicell topped at around 8kms.&nbsp;I 
should have 3D radar up tonight.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>The best image is this</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.stormchasers.au.com/Aug02/0803jon12.jpg"><FONT 
size=2>http://www.stormchasers.au.com/Aug02/0803jon12.jpg</FONT></A><FONT 
size=2>&nbsp;but I may be able to get a video grab taken through the trees a 
couple of minutes before which might give an indication of 
structure.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Jane</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2>--------------------------------<BR>Jane 
ONeill - Melbourne<BR></FONT><A href="mailto:cadence at stormchasers.au.com"><FONT 
size=2>cadence at stormchasers.au.com</FONT></A><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Melbourne Storm Chasers<BR></FONT><A 
href="http://www.stormchasers.au.com"><FONT 
size=2>http://www.stormchasers.au.com</FONT></A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>ASWA - Victoria<BR></FONT><A 
href="http://www.severeweather.asn.au"><FONT 
size=2>http://www.severeweather.asn.au</FONT></A><BR><FONT 
size=2>--------------------------------</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=mskikey at hotmail.com href="mailto:mskikey at hotmail.com">michael 
  king</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 5 August 2002 3:50</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Euroa, 
Victoria</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>Jane</P>
  <P>Were you able to ascertain&nbsp;to what height&nbsp;the tornado's parent 
  cloud extened to?</P>
  <P>If you were, did you get any pictures of the entire complex?</P>
  <P>Michael<BR><BR></P></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Jane ONeill" <CADENCE at STORMCHASERS.AU.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: <A 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;CC: <SWVIC at BOM.GOV.AU>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:59:53 +1000 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Anthony Cornelius wrote elsewhere: 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;"I think this is a fantastic example why your eyes should be on 
  the sky 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;all the time! Something like this can so easily be missed. I 
  also wonder 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;how many other tornadoes may have occurred yesterday in 
  Victoria and 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;southern NSW (although the main line of storms was a squall 
  line I 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;believe)." 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Anthony and all, I've also got a pan of 2 storms to the west 
  just a bit 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;earlier than the Euroa event with one seeming to try to funnel, 
  but if 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;it succeeded I didn't see it, and I also have shots of a 
  convergence 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;line passing through Melbourne near 2pm with suspicious 
  lowerings over 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Vermont South (which I'll add later) - so I agree Anthony - I 
  reckon 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;there might have been a few more in the area yesterday that 
  weren't 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;spotted. While rushing back to the car to get something 
  yesterday I was 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;almost run over by 6 people riding their horses into Euroa - 
  they could 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;clearly see what I was videoing and getting excited about, but 
  they 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;weren't in the least bit interested, which begs the question, 
  how may 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;tornadoes &amp; funnels are seen and people say "oh yeah..." 
  and that's the 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;end of it????? 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Fortunately there are at least 3 eye witnesses of the Euroa 
  tornado that 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;I have to ring today. 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;and if you'd like to have another look at the page below - I've 
  put up 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;30 video captures this morning - I'm still linking the full 
  sized images 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;but the thumbnails are there. 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Jane 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;-------------------------------- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Jane ONeill - Melbourne 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Melbourne Storm Chasers 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.stormchasers.au.com 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;ASWA - Victoria 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.severeweather.asn.au 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;-------------------------------- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;----- Original Message ----- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Peter Matters" <PKMATTERS at BIGPOND.COM.AU>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:15 AM 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Excellent stuff Jane! And right on my doorstep!!!!!!! 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; I could see the cell from Monegeeta (family bday party). 
  The sunlit 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;anvil 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; looked quite impressive through the foreground 
  Alrostratus. The 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;buildup was 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; pushing the cap from around lunchtime with TCU and 
  Congestus 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;everywhere. 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Peter 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message ----- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; From: "Jane ONeill" <CADENCE at STORMCHASERS.AU.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; To: "Aussie-wx" <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:51 PM 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Evening all, 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Images taken between 1604 &amp; 1618 just to the 
  east of Euroa in 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;northern 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still 
  there for another 3 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;or 4 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain 
  shaft. Video snaps 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;should 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other 
  interesting features, 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;like 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing 
  &amp; the internal 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; structure, none of which I managed to capture on 
  these stills. Storm 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; became lightning active but not until ****after**** 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;touchdown...anyone 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; know why, or is this called a coincidence? 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Jane 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Jane ONeill - Melbourne 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Melbourne Storm Chasers 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.stormchasers.au.com 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; ASWA - Victoria 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.severeweather.asn.au 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;to:majordomo at world.std.com 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" 
  in the body of 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;your 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; message. 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au----------------------------- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;to:majordomo at world.std.com 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in 
  the body of 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;your 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; message. 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au---------------------------- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;-- 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
  to:majordomo at world.std.com 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the 
  body of your 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; message. 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ 
  <DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=all>
  <HR>
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Date: Mon, 05 Aug 2002 16:06:44 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fwd: Last report on Kammuri from HK
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.2
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Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Yes, Clyve, The storm is 211 km NE of here, but we are within the tiny 
little portion of it's circulation (as viewed on satpic) where there are 
no rainbands and it is dead calm.
HKO predicts strong winds and squalls later on today.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 16:27:15 +1000
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Fwd: Last report on Kammuri from HK

> Hi Phil.
> The central region of this tropical storm appears to be northeast of
> Hong
> Kong and moving inland, not far away though!, you seem to be under the
> south-western cirrus outflow region. regards Clyve H.
[snip]

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 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 21:20:42 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Jane,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>This is the best pic I have seen so far ! I take it 
you have another digital now ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Michael</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
  href="mailto:cadence at stormchasers.au.com">Jane ONeill</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 05, 2002 4:29 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Euroa, 
Victoria</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Hi Michael &amp; all,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>That particular severe multicell topped at around 
  8kms.&nbsp;I should have 3D radar up tonight.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>The best image is this</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><A href="http://www.stormchasers.au.com/Aug02/0803jon12.jpg"><FONT 
  size=2>http://www.stormchasers.au.com/Aug02/0803jon12.jpg</FONT></A><FONT 
  size=2>&nbsp;but I may be able to get a video grab taken through the trees a 
  couple of minutes before which might give an indication of 
  structure.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Jane</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma><FONT size=2>--------------------------------<BR>Jane 
  ONeill - Melbourne<BR></FONT><A 
  href="mailto:cadence at stormchasers.au.com"><FONT 
  size=2>cadence at stormchasers.au.com</FONT></A><FONT size=2> </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Melbourne Storm Chasers<BR></FONT><A 
  href="http://www.stormchasers.au.com"><FONT 
  size=2>http://www.stormchasers.au.com</FONT></A></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>ASWA - Victoria<BR></FONT><A 
  href="http://www.severeweather.asn.au"><FONT 
  size=2>http://www.severeweather.asn.au</FONT></A><BR><FONT 
  size=2>--------------------------------</FONT></DIV></FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=mskikey at hotmail.com href="mailto:mskikey at hotmail.com">michael 
    king</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
    title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
    </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 5 August 2002 3:50</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Euroa, 
    Victoria</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV>
    <DIV>
    <P>Jane</P>
    <P>Were you able to ascertain&nbsp;to what height&nbsp;the tornado's parent 
    cloud extened to?</P>
    <P>If you were, did you get any pictures of the entire complex?</P>
    <P>Michael<BR><BR></P></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Jane ONeill" <CADENCE at STORMCHASERS.AU.COM>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: <A 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;CC: <SWVIC at BOM.GOV.AU>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 10:59:53 +1000 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Anthony Cornelius wrote elsewhere: 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;"I think this is a fantastic example why your eyes should be 
    on the sky 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;all the time! Something like this can so easily be missed. I 
    also wonder 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;how many other tornadoes may have occurred yesterday in 
    Victoria and 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;southern NSW (although the main line of storms was a squall 
    line I 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;believe)." 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Anthony and all, I've also got a pan of 2 storms to the west 
    just a bit 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;earlier than the Euroa event with one seeming to try to 
    funnel, but if 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;it succeeded I didn't see it, and I also have shots of a 
    convergence 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;line passing through Melbourne near 2pm with suspicious 
    lowerings over 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Vermont South (which I'll add later) - so I agree Anthony - I 
    reckon 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;there might have been a few more in the area yesterday that 
    weren't 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;spotted. While rushing back to the car to get something 
    yesterday I was 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;almost run over by 6 people riding their horses into Euroa - 
    they could 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;clearly see what I was videoing and getting excited about, 
    but they 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;weren't in the least bit interested, which begs the question, 
    how may 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;tornadoes &amp; funnels are seen and people say "oh yeah..." 
    and that's the 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;end of it????? 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Fortunately there are at least 3 eye witnesses of the Euroa 
    tornado that 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;I have to ring today. 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;and if you'd like to have another look at the page below - 
    I've put up 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;30 video captures this morning - I'm still linking the full 
    sized images 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;but the thumbnails are there. 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Jane 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;-------------------------------- 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Jane ONeill - Melbourne 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Melbourne Storm Chasers 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.stormchasers.au.com 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;ASWA - Victoria 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;http://www.severeweather.asn.au 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;-------------------------------- 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;----- Original Message ----- 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Peter Matters" <PKMATTERS at BIGPOND.COM.AU>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2002 9:15 AM 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Excellent stuff Jane! And right on my doorstep!!!!!!! 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; I could see the cell from Monegeeta (family bday 
    party). The sunlit 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;anvil 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; looked quite impressive through the foreground 
    Alrostratus. The 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;buildup was 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; pushing the cap from around lunchtime with TCU and 
    Congestus 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;everywhere. 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Peter 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; ----- Original Message ----- 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; From: "Jane ONeill" <CADENCE at STORMCHASERS.AU.COM>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; To: "Aussie-wx" <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 9:51 PM 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Subject: aus-wx: Euroa, Victoria 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Evening all, 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Images taken between 1604 &amp; 1618 just to the 
    east of Euroa in 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;northern 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Victoria just off the Freeway, and it was still 
    there for another 3 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;or 4 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; minutes, but was almost hidden behind the rain 
    shaft. Video snaps 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;should 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; be up tomorrow and show all sorts of other 
    interesting features, 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;like 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; rings moving up the column, snake-like writhing 
    &amp; the internal 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; structure, none of which I managed to capture on 
    these stills. Storm 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; became lightning active but not until 
    ****after**** 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt;touchdown...anyone 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; know why, or is this called a coincidence? 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Jane 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------- 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Jane ONeill - Melbourne 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; Melbourne Storm Chasers 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.stormchasers.au.com 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; ASWA - Victoria 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; http://www.severeweather.asn.au 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; -------------------------------- 
    <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; &gt; 
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From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Pencil line cloud band +.
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:33:50 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Aug 2002 12:35:42.0872 (UTC) FILETIME=[9D13B180:01C23C7C]
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Nice pencil line of cirrus across western Aus 
(pathetic NW cloud band category!), despite this though there appears to be some 
weak upper vorticity south west of Skippy/ sorry Kangaroo island, some not to 
bad radar returns around the Adelaide area at the moment. regards Clyve 
Herbert.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Stargazer" <stargazer at picknowl.com.au>
To: "Aussie-Weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Windy Adelaide
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 22:28:27 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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<DIV><PRE><FONT face=Arial size=2>IDS20280
BUREAU OF METEOROLOGY
SOUTH AUSTRALIAN REGIONAL OFFICE

SEVERE WIND ADVICE
Issued at 9:35 pm on Monday, 5 August 2002
For people in Mid North, Adelaide and Mount Lofty Ranges, Kangaroo Island, Yorke
Peninsula, Murraylands and Upper and Lower South East districts. 

A squally northwest wind change with squalls to around 95 km/hr is in the
process of moving over the above districts, having reached Adelaide at around
9:15 pm.  Winds are expected to ease within an hour or so of the change passing.</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Arial size=2>------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></PRE></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Having a bit of wind here in Adelaide at the moment 
with 96kph (52knots) at Adelaide airport at 21:15 &amp; 117kph (63knots) on Mt. 
Lofty at 21:27. Down my way Noarlunga has&nbsp;recorded 81kph (44knots) at 
21:44.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My WM-918 weather station has recorded a max wind 
speed of 41.4kph at 21:15 here at Morphett Vale so far (highest I've 
ever&nbsp;recorded so far is&nbsp;54.4kph on 8th June 02)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regs. Paul.<BR>(Stargazer)<BR><A 
href="http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer">http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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From: "Paul Yole" <pyole at lexicon.net>
To: "Australian Weather Mailing List" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 09:32:00 -0500
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Hey All,

Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of MSC or Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and quoted someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.

They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images from the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
though.

The images and reports can be found at http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm

Congratulations once again Jane.

Paul Yole
State Rep - ASWA Victoria
EDD: 08/08/02
http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/

"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 07:18:40 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-flowed>
Hi Paul,

Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really 
comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing the 
debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the damage 
path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it was a 
tornado or not.

Good stuff.

Jimmy Deguara

At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey All,
>
>Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State 
>Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
>reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of MSC or 
>Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
>annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and quoted 
>someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
>funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
>
>They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images from 
>the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
>though.
>
>The images and reports can be found at 
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
>
>Congratulations once again Jane.
>
>Paul Yole
>State Rep - ASWA Victoria
>EDD: 08/08/02
>http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
>
>"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
>
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:47:01 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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Jimmy,

it was a tornado.

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> Hi Paul,
>
> Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing the
> debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
damage
> path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it was a
> tornado or not.
>
> Good stuff.
>
> Jimmy Deguara
>
> At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hey All,
> >
> >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of MSC or
> >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and quoted
> >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> >
> >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images from
> >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> >though.
> >
> >The images and reports can be found at
> >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> >
> >Congratulations once again Jane.
> >
> >Paul Yole
> >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> >EDD: 08/08/02
> >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> >
> >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Jimmy Deguara
> Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
>
> from
> Schofields, Sydney
> NSW Australia
>
> e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
>
> Web Page with Michael Bath
>
> Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> http://www.australiasevereweather.com
>
> President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Nathan Thompson" <pthomps3 at bigpond.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Windy Adelaide
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:28:38 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Stargazer,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Our AWS at home recorded 37 knots. (69 kph). Wind 
was pretty wild for a 15 mins with highest one minute average of 24 knots (45 
kph). There was a tree damaged next door that been knocked down from the wind. 
Its only a birch, top half fell down, branch diameter to be 8cm around. It is 
not rotten. Still appeared to be alive. No leafs in winter which is normal for 
birch. Many birches aren't evengreen. I am really surprised other area reported 
much higher gust. I guess it would have to be like um very strong low 
level&nbsp;wind with the front system that has reached the surface last night. 
To be honest, it was an unexpected one as Bureau of Meteorology hasn't forecast 
it and they put on SWA bit later than the wind that it has happened. Not happy 
with the BoM service for a bit late of SWA. I saw AIST on metar site that YPAD 
met forecasted surface wind to 45 knots with the front. That was earlier than 
what it has happened before it hit.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>From Nathan.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=stargazer at picknowl.com.au 
  href="mailto:stargazer at picknowl.com.au">Stargazer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">Aussie-Weather</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, August 05, 2002 10:28 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Windy Adelaide</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><PRE><FONT face=Arial size=2>IDS20280
BUREAU OF METEOROLOGY
SOUTH AUSTRALIAN REGIONAL OFFICE

SEVERE WIND ADVICE
Issued at 9:35 pm on Monday, 5 August 2002
For people in Mid North, Adelaide and Mount Lofty Ranges, Kangaroo Island, Yorke
Peninsula, Murraylands and Upper and Lower South East districts. 

A squally northwest wind change with squalls to around 95 km/hr is in the
process of moving over the above districts, having reached Adelaide at around
9:15 pm.  Winds are expected to ease within an hour or so of the change passing.</FONT></PRE><PRE><FONT face=Arial size=2>------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></PRE></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Having a bit of wind here in Adelaide at the 
  moment with 96kph (52knots) at Adelaide airport at 21:15 &amp; 117kph 
  (63knots) on Mt. Lofty at 21:27. Down my way Noarlunga has&nbsp;recorded 81kph 
  (44knots) at 21:44.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My WM-918 weather station has recorded a max wind 
  speed of 41.4kph at 21:15 here at Morphett Vale so far (highest I've 
  ever&nbsp;recorded so far is&nbsp;54.4kph on 8th June 02)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regs. Paul.<BR>(Stargazer)<BR><A 
  href="http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer">http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer</A></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 07:21:45 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Fwd: Further Kammuri report from HK
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
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See attached:
Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Phil Smith" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
To: "_Cyclone Chat Group" <phil at drdisk.com.hk>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 07:20:28 +0800
Subject: Further Kammuri report from HK

After a quiet day and evening with only a few minor thunder squalls, I
was awoken several times in the early hours of this morning by wild winds
and driving rain on the South facing window of our bedroom.
The HKO hoisted the Strong Monsoon Signal at 01:00 this morning.
The Thunderstorm warning was hoisted at 01:10 and the Amber Rainstorm
Warning at 06:10.
I have added the 06:30 captures of the Sha Tin AWS 24-hour graphs to the
page at http://www.drdisk.com.hk/kammuri.htm to show an interesting
comparison with the earlier captures.
Here are the 06:30 obs from HK stations:
<PRE>
Date/Time: 6/8/2002 06:30
Station        Temp RH   Max/Min  Dir/Speed Barometer HI
               (C)  (%)    (C)      (km/h)   (hPa)    (C)
----------------------------------------------------------
HK Observatory 27.8  85 28.6/27.3 ---/-----  998.3   
King's Park    ---- --- ----/---- S  / 20.0 ------   
Wong Chuk Hang 27.7  86 27.8/26.7 N  / 16.0 ------   
Ta Kwu Ling    26.1  98 27.1/25.7 ---/  8.0  998.2   
Lau Fau Shan   26.2  97 27.2/25.2 S  / 24.0  998.2   
Tai Po         26.2  87 28.7/26.1 ---/-----  998.3   
Sha Tin        25.7  97 28.1/25.6 S  / 13.0  998.6   
Tuen Mun       25.9 100 27.6/25.4 S  / 16.0 ------   
Tseung Kwan O  27.7  84 27.9/26.5 S  / 12.0 ------   
Sai Kung       27.4  86 28.2/27.0 S  / 15.0 ------   
Cheung Chau    26.2  95 26.4/25.9 S  / 41.0  998.6   
Chek Lap Kok   24.6  94 28.4/24.6 S  / 51.0  999.1   
Tsing Yi       ---- --- ----/---- ---/----- ------   
Shek Kong      25.7  99 27.3/25.7 ---/-----  998.3   
</PRE>
Here at Sha Tin the Southerly wind had dropped to 13.0 km/h after having
been at 35 km/h at 02:00.  Meanwhile, Chek Lap Kok has winds of 51.0 km/h
which is its highest 10 minute average wind speed in the past 24 hours. 
It looks like the Tsing Yi AWS has been knocked out altogether.
As I type, the Sha Tin wind speed has increased to 25 km/h, the rain is
belting the window so hard you can hardly hear anything else inside the
flat, and lightning is flashing at a rate of about one visible flash per
second.  As to the thunder, only the very closest Flangs can be heard
above the noise of the rain.
Looking at the animated satpic, the circulation of Kammuri is gradually
being replaced by the straight-on SW Monsoon.  So it's hard to say
whether we can attribute the current conditions to Kammuri or not.

I may do another report later if necessary.

Phil
<><
 
Phil Smith
Director
Doctor Disk Limited
17C Carmel Heights
Belair Gardens
Shatin, NT
Hong Kong
 
Phone: +852 9522 7756
E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web: http://www.drdisk.com.hk

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "macdonald" <sclmacdonald at optusnet.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: WEATHER MEMORIES : GUYRA WINTERS
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 09:53:46 +1000
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<DIV>Hi All, </DIV>
<DIV>I came across this on the ABC rural homepage. Weather Memories</DIV>
<DIV>Herbert Jackson and Colin Chapman from Guyra can remember walking to school 
in 18 inches of snow when they were children, around 40 years ago. Herbet and 
Colin say they'd get about five or six falls of snow each winter while now you 
might get one fall of snow a year and it's gone in few hours. They can remember 
putting a heated brick in the bed just to keep warm at night. <BR>Colin Chapman: 
Guyra <BR>Herbet Jackson: Guyra </DIV>
<DIV>The snow may not stay around so long now, most probably due to the sparse 
landscape... In the 1900's Guyra and the surrounds were heavily timbered...but, 
I am sure that the clearing has not had such a determentral effect upon the 
environment.. Anyway, other locals/ Peter Burr Armidale Observer said Guyra gets 
at least 2 settling snow falls pa.&nbsp; SInce records began (see my webpage)... 
Guyra has had a least 1 snow fall pa. So i think the chances for snow in August 
is most possible.&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I wrote to the Everies (ex clients/ and friends of dad) at Silent Grove 
1400metres, some time ago about the snow event of July 84..... they told me 
there was snow on the ground for a couple of weeks, and during the drought years 
they have only light dustings of snow.&nbsp; Eric (ex Guyra observer) said as a 
young lad he would jump of the fencing rails into the snow, and told me that the 
snow was 18inches deep on the road at the dip -i.e just as enter off the new 
england highway into the main street. Their property is situated on the Maybole 
Range just outside of the villiage of Ben Lomond 1360metres (highest farming 
village in australia).</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Cheers </DIV>
<DIV>Sam</DIV>
<DIV>GUYRA &amp; TALLAI WEATHER </DIV>
<DIV><A 
href="http://www.geocities.com/ratman6900/index.html">http://www.geocities.com/ratman6900/index.html</A></DIV>
<DIV><BR>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:36:42 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF13/1367.html

there's more too, Craig - just dial "Full moon heats Earth" into google.com
and you'll get a whole swag of stuff
best
Ken
www.predictweather.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> Hi Ken,
>
> I'd certainly be interested in reading the references if you'd like to
> forward them.
>
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2002 11:19
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> Hi Craig and all
> I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look for where
> things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you name it. I
> would say cold is another concept which has to come from somewhere. Nor
can
> it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and arguably
even
> more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed with the
> direction in mind that cold travels.
> Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with all due
> respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to those books
has
> much to contribute to this discussion.
> Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon has a
> heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995 Balling(Arizona State
> University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global temps. Temps
> in
> the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon and
coolest
> during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than 200 synodic
> cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of the moon
> accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC. Significant
> enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also heats the
> earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they found that the
> poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This range of
> temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a whole. It
> shows
> that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon but the
> transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters Earth's
> magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic radiation.
> All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants source refs I
> can provide them. And there could be two discussions here - whether or not
> it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it gets colder
> over a 24 hour period.
> cheers
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:21 PM
> Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Hi Ken, all
> >
> > I'm concerned as to the "cold of space" term referred to. Most texts on
> > meteorology include a diagram of the temperature as the altitude
> increases.
> > Firstly there is the "warm region" at around 50 km. Then temperature
> > increases rapidly above 100km.
> >
> > This is due to the rapid increase in mean free path of the molecules
> which
> > by this level are the lighter elements such as hydrogen and helium. The
> > mean free path is also inversely proportional to pressure, so as this
> > decreases the mean free path increases also. The problem is in the
> vastness
> > of space there are such few atoms/molecules to pass this energy to any
> body
> > with great success. I think that the term "cold of space" is rather
> > misleading. There is little to no heat or "cool" (for want of a better
> > word) stored in the near-vacuum of space.
> >
> > Atmospheric "cool" would be "created" in the upper levels of the
> > troposphere due to the free expansion of gas which results in a drop in
> > temperature (according to the ideal gas law).
> >
> > I would agree with John Woodbridge in the idea that if the full moon
> > created clear skies, radiational cooling under these clear skies would
> lead
> > to lower minimums around full moon. I don't have any statistical
evidence
> > to that side, so I will leave it there.
> >
> > Craig Arthur
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > Sent: Friday, 26 July 2002 02:15
> > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > Hi John
> > > so to say that it is cold, or has
> > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only solid
> > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.
> > Hmm..interesting. The trouble is, you could say the same about heat,
> which
> > also comes via space. But we do have this word 'cold' and cold falls
just
> > as
> > heat rises. In fact one replaces the other. One could ask, where does
> > atmospheric cold come from, assuming everything has a source. Then the
> only
> > answer must surely be from upper levels and descending. The cold of
space
> > has been measured at minus 220.
> > > So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the upper
> > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in fact be
> > > warmer...
> > I think I'd suggest that at airtide-out the density of the atmosphere
was
> > thinner and the heat layer weakened, allowing cold to get through.
> > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous email)
> then
> > it
> > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat loss...
> > Not if the dispersing effect came from a stretching of the atmosphere to
> a
> > greater height, which is what I think the Full moon does.
> > cheers
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 6:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > Hi Ken,
> > >
> > > Space is space, i.e., a virtual vacuum, so to say that it is cold, or
> has
> > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only solid
> > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.  And in
> > fact,
> > > as you reach the upper layers of the atmosphere the temperature
> increases
> > > dramatically to be well above surface temperatures, even on cold
> moonless
> > > nights.  So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the
upper
> > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in fact be
> > > warmer...  What I think you are seeing is that with a thinner
> atmosphere
> > it
> > > has less of a blanket effect, and thus heat radiates more readily from
> > the
> > > surface and hence you get a lower surface temperature.  Then again, it
> is
> > > well known that cloudless nights are much colder than cloudy ones, due
> in
> > > this case, to clouds inhibiting surface radiation.  So, it seems to me
> > that
> > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous email)
> then
> > it
> > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat loss...
> So
> > I
> > > would naturally expect to find a statistical correlation between full
> > moon
> > > and colder nights if the theory is correct, rather than one between
new
> > moon
> > > and colder nights.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > John W.
> > > >snip
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:25 PM
> > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > It is a feature of full moon that in the sunshine it is warm but as
> soon
> > as
> > > the sun goes behind a cloud you are rushing for extra clothing, even
in
> > > summer. If marathons are held around full moon in summer it is when
> heat
> > > exhaustion is more likely to occur. The reason is the deeper air tide,
> > just
> > > like the king tides in the water. When the moon is out of the sky,
> > airtide
> > > out, the cold of space comes closer to earth. A statistical check on
> > night
> > > temperatures through winter will reveal that New moon nights are
always
> > > colder than full moon nights.
> > > Ken Ring
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paul Yole" <pyole at lexicon.net>
> > > To: "Australian Weather Mailing List" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:24 PM
> > > Subject: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey All,
> > > >
> > > > What is up with this cold??? Walk outside and you freeze! Anyone got
> an
> > > explanation for this??? Horsham's obs are:
> > > >
> > > > Horsham 12:00 5.7/2.2
> > > > Longerenong 12:00 5.6/1.5
> > > >
> > > > Doubt we'll see the forecast temp of 12C out here today.
> > > >
> > > > PaulY
> > > >
> > > > Paul Yole
> > > > State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > >
> > > > "I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > >
> > > >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >
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> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
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> your
> > >  message.
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
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> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
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> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:19:09 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G'Week to ALL:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I was just 
wondering: Does EVERYPLACE in Australia have a sharply defined "dry" and "wet" 
season. Where I am, Mena, and most of the rest of the US have no sharply defined 
dry/wet seasons. Exceptions may be the monsoon season in the desert Southwest 
and the Wintertime rains in Southern California. As said before, here, we seldom 
see dry periods for more than 14 straight days; so I really can't imagine 
waiting 6 months or so to see a good rain.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Have a good 
one&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 15:35:38 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


> 
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> 
> ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C23CDE.E266F640
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> G'Week to ALL:
>        I was just wondering: Does EVERYPLACE in Australia have a sharply =
> defined "dry" and "wet" season. Where I am, Mena, and most of the rest =
> of the US have no sharply defined dry/wet seasons. Exceptions may be the =
> monsoon season in the desert Southwest and the Wintertime rains in =
> Southern California. As said before, here, we seldom see dry periods for =
> more than 14 straight days; so I really can't imagine waiting 6 months =
> or so to see a good rain.
>        Have a good one         David Powell

No - most of the south-east has no defined dry season. There are  
monthly average rainfall maps on the Bureau's site (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate).

Blair
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X-Originating-IP: [152.91.9.49]
From: "michael king" <mskikey at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 15:59:28 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Aug 2002 05:59:29.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[6D3547C0:01C23D0E]
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<x-html>
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>Dave</P>
<P>Try this link</P>
<P>Michael</P>
<P><A href="http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/environ/other/map1.shtml">http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/environ/other/map1.shtml</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "arky dave" <DAJAPO at VOLTAGE.NET>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:19:09 -0500 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;G'Week to ALL: 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; I was just wondering: Does EVERYPLACE in Australia have a sharply defined "dry" and "wet" season. Where I am, Mena, and most of the rest of the US have no sharply defined dry/wet seasons. Exceptions may be the monsoon season in the desert Southwest and the Wintertime rains in Southern California. As said before, here, we seldom see dry periods for more than 14 straight days; so I really can't imagine waiting 6 months or so to see a good rain. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; Have a good one David Powell 
<DIV></DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENAU/c157??PI=44314'>Click Here</a><br></html>
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-html>
X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 16:17:13 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: aus-wx: ASWA AGM and AMOS meeting later in the month
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hello,

As you all know, the ASWA Conference is to be held soon - 17th August 2002. 
So this serves as a reminder.

http://www.severeweather.asn.au/agm2002.htm


------------------------------------------

For those who would like to attend the AMOS weatherwatch meeting, read below.


------------------------------------------
Dear Weatherwatcher,
Here is the Latest Newsletter.
Regards Roger.


AUSTRALIAN METEOROLOGICAL & OCEANOGRAPHIC SOCIETY,

A.M.O.S. SYDNEY CENTRE - WEATHERWATCH GROUP

NEWSLETTER NUMBER 02-08 - AUGUST 2002

The Next Meeting of the AMOS Weatherwatch Group will be on

Wednesday 28th August 2002 at 7:30pm (19:30) at

Macquarie University, Building E5A, Room 143 (E5A-143).

Expensive Parking is available in University Car-Parks see notes below.

Our Guest is Lesa Moore, an Astronomer from the Koolang Observatory near 
Wollombi, inland from the Central Coast.

Lesa is also responsible for 'The Public Observer Program' at The Macquarie 
University Observatory.

Her Subject will be:- 'Operation of the Observatory

and Observation of Objects in the Sydney Sky in August'.

The Meeting will be copiously illustrated with slides and will be an 
opportunity to discuss weather, cloudiness and Astronomy.

Members are invited to bring their own astronomy books/photos

Before the main presentation, Neal Moodie, our Contact at the Bureau of 
Meteorology will present rainfall and temperature data for June, July and 
August, and the extent and intensity of the drought.

After the Main Speaker Jimmy will present more Video of the USA.

This Meeting will be a further opportunity to discuss the activities and 
who will be taking on responsibilities for organising the meetings in the 
year 2003, and beyond, including the newsletters.

pto for more meetings>>>>>>>>

At our Following Meeting on Wed. 23rd October our speaker will be Father 
Terry Herbert from the Chevalier College at Bowral who will describe his 
work at the College in Meteorology and Local Climate.

Visitors are very welcome. Discussion will follow all the presentations, 
and light refreshments will be available throughout the meeting.

These Meetings will continue our excellent series of presentations.

Past Meetings.

Weatherwatch had a meeting on 26th June with Paul Graham and his amazing 
Time Lapse Video of Meteorological Events put to Music.

AMOS held the Scientific Meeting at Macquarie University where Assoc. 
Professor Howard Bridgeman talked on Wind, Wings and Weather regarding 
Cattle Egret Migrations in the Tasman Sea Area.
ASWA held their latest meeting at North Sydney on 13th July to study the 
Winter Weather with contributions from members.

The 4th Annual National ASWA Conference will be held at North Ryde RSL on 
17th August, followed by a barbeque on 18th.

At meetings of Weatherwatch be careful about your parking, fees have been 
$2.00 for the first hour, or a total of $5.00 for 2, 3, 4, hours, or $6.00 
for the whole evening to 11:59pm. Read the instructions.

Enquiries Contact:-

Alan Williams (02)9488.9975 Paul Graham (02)9888.2527

Jimmy Deguara (02)9627.1943 Roger Nurse (02)9449.1473

Neal Moodie (02)9296.1555 Bureau of Meteorology Contact

Dr. Milton Speer (02)9296.1618 Past AMOS Sydney Centre Chair/BoM.

Recent Weather

Cold Nights and Cool Dry Days in June and July with occasional light rain, 
after 35 days of drought in Sydney. Coldest Night in Sydney was 4.3C on 
12th July, coldest this year, and for several years. Frosts everywhere. 
Storms on Mon. 29th July, and again on Sat. 3rd August, with hail at 
Penrith and wind damage in the outer suburbs. HMS Nottingham survived its 
shipwreck on Wolfe Rock near Lord Howe Island in bad weather, and is on its 
way to Newcastle Dockyard. Another ship is stuck on the Barrier Reef. Perth 
is concerned about water shortages after five years of below average 
rainfall. Rain at the Closing of the Games in Manchester.

Devastating hail storm in North Italy and floods in Assam/Bihar in India.

Warnings: If you change your e-mail please tell somebody.

Wishing all our members and friends an enjoyable Spring season.

Regards Roger T. Nurse, Convenor & News Editor 6th August 2002.

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

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</x-flowed>
From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:00:07 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


THANKS!!! I can't get enough of weather maps.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Blair Trewin" <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON


> >
> > This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> >
> > ------=_NextPart_000_0012_01C23CDE.E266F640
> > Content-Type: text/plain;
> > charset="iso-8859-1"
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > G'Week to ALL:
> >        I was just wondering: Does EVERYPLACE in Australia have a sharply
=
> > defined "dry" and "wet" season. Where I am, Mena, and most of the rest =
> > of the US have no sharply defined dry/wet seasons. Exceptions may be the
=
> > monsoon season in the desert Southwest and the Wintertime rains in =
> > Southern California. As said before, here, we seldom see dry periods for
=
> > more than 14 straight days; so I really can't imagine waiting 6 months =
> > or so to see a good rain.
> >        Have a good one         David Powell
>
> No - most of the south-east has no defined dry season. There are
> monthly average rainfall maps on the Bureau's site
(http://www.bom.gov.au/climate).
>
> Blair
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 02:00:45 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>THANKS!!! This is a wonderful map that answers my 
question.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=mskikey at hotmail.com href="mailto:mskikey at hotmail.com">michael 
  king</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 12:59 
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>Dave</P>
  <P>Try this link</P>
  <P>Michael</P>
  <P><A 
  href="http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/environ/other/map1.shtml">http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/environ/other/map1.shtml</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "arky dave" <DAJAPO at VOLTAGE.NET>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: <A 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 00:19:09 -0500 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;G'Week to ALL: 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; I was just wondering: Does EVERYPLACE in Australia have a 
  sharply defined "dry" and "wet" season. Where I am, Mena, and most of the rest 
  of the US have no sharply defined dry/wet seasons. Exceptions may be the 
  monsoon season in the desert Southwest and the Wintertime rains in Southern 
  California. As said before, here, we seldom see dry periods for more than 14 
  straight days; so I really can't imagine waiting 6 months or so to see a good 
  rain. 
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; Have a good one David Powell 
  <DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=all>
  <HR>
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  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------ 
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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:42:54 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


I think you have to say that since you can visibly see the funnel cloud
to about 90% of the ground (trees below that), that the chances are so
high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
almost definately a tornado.

Besides, Jane mentioned there was a damage track reported too I think???

AC

Jimmy Deguara wrote:
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing the
> debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the damage
> path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it was a
> tornado or not.
> 
> Good stuff.
> 
> Jimmy Deguara
> 
> At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >Hey All,
> >
> >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of MSC or
> >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and quoted
> >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> >
> >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images from
> >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> >though.
> >
> >The images and reports can be found at
> >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> >
> >Congratulations once again Jane.
> >
> >Paul Yole
> >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> >EDD: 08/08/02
> >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> >
> >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> Jimmy Deguara
> Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> 
> from
> Schofields, Sydney
> NSW Australia
> 
> e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> 
> Web Page with Michael Bath
> 
> Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> 
> President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> 
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-- 
Anthony Cornelius
Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the 
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au
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Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 19:26:03 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi Anthony,

"that the chances are so
high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
almost definately a tornado."

Ahhhh - I agree with that concept and that is my opinion - it is most 
likely a tornado.

Who was the person in the BoM who noted it as a funnel? Perhaps they need 
to be told of the damage track. Was a damage survey done? And if so by whom?


Now check out this US report and the photograph associated with it

http://www.onthefront.ws/mar2902.htm    take particular note what they call it

http://www.onthefront.ws/images/32902v5.jpg


Anyway, that's science, full of debate.

By the way, I have been also looking into the dust whirls of November 22 
1999 in SE Qld. The consensus seems to point to gustnado after all despite 
the dust whirls.

http://www.australiasevereweather.com/tornado.htm  go down to the dust 
whirls. Not enough evidence.

You will see during the ASWA Conference why!!!

Jimmy Deguara


At 06:42 PM 6/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>I think you have to say that since you can visibly see the funnel cloud
>to about 90% of the ground (trees below that), that the chances are so
>high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
>almost definately a tornado.
>
>Besides, Jane mentioned there was a damage track reported too I think???
>
>AC
>
>Jimmy Deguara wrote:
> >
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing the
> > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the damage
> > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it was a
> > tornado or not.
> >
> > Good stuff.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Hey All,
> > >
> > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of MSC or
> > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and quoted
> > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >
> > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images from
> > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >though.
> > >
> > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >
> > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >
> > >Paul Yole
> > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >
> > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >
> > >
> > >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> > >  message.
> > >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>--
>Anthony Cornelius
>Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
>Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
>(07) 3390 4812
>http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:30:19 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> Jimmy,
>
> it was a tornado.
>
> Jane
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>
>
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing the
> > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
> damage
> > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it was
a
> > tornado or not.
> >
> > Good stuff.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Hey All,
> > >
> > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of MSC
or
> > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
quoted
> > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >
> > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images from
> > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >though.
> > >
> > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >
> > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >
> > >Paul Yole
> > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >
> > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 20:47:21 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


I thought that a "funnel" that disturbed debris on the ground is then
classified as a tornado.
Have I lost the plot again?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Cornelius" <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> I think you have to say that since you can visibly see the funnel cloud
> to about 90% of the ground (trees below that), that the chances are so
> high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> almost definately a tornado.
>
> Besides, Jane mentioned there was a damage track reported too I think???
>
> AC
>
> Jimmy Deguara wrote:
> >
> > Hi Paul,
> >
> > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing the
> > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
damage
> > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it was
a
> > tornado or not.
> >
> > Good stuff.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >Hey All,
> > >
> > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of MSC
or
> > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
quoted
> > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >
> > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images from
> > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >though.
> > >
> > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >
> > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >
> > >Paul Yole
> > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >
> > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> --
> Anthony Cornelius
> Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
> Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
> (07) 3390 4812
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 20:56:36 +1000
From: Don White <donwhite at ozemail.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail Report - Local Paper
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


"Within minutes of the hale temperatures plummeted in Bathurst."- quote
from the  press report.... country journalism for you - just as well
they have good subbies.
Don W

David.Carroll at CountryEnergy.com.au wrote:
> 
> http://www.bathurst.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=local&story_id=169359&category=general%20news
> 
> HI all.
> 
> Report and pic of hail in Bathurst at this above website.
> 
> Dave
> 
> #####################################################################################
> This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain confidential
> information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify the
> sender. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, and are
> not necessarily the views of Country Energy.
> #####################################################################################
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Chase report for 3rd August 2002
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:16:50 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


I have placed my chase report for the 3rd of August online. Some nice
photos, nothing severe, but nice colours, etc.

http://ozthunder.com/chase/chase32.htm

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 00:02:52 +0930
From: Richard Albury <ra7167 at chariot.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
&nbsp;
<p>arky dave wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE><style></style>
<font face="Arial"><font size=-1>G'Week
to ALL:</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
I was just wondering: Does EVERYPLACE in Australia have a sharply defined
"dry" and "wet" season. Where I am, Mena, and most of the rest of the US
have no sharply defined dry/wet seasons. Exceptions may be the monsoon
season in the desert Southwest and the Wintertime rains in Southern California.
As said before, here, we seldom see dry periods for more than 14 straight
days; so I really can't imagine waiting 6 months or so to see a good rain.</font></font><font face="Arial"><font size=-1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Have a good one&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David Powell</font></font></blockquote>
Hi arky mate
<br>Tropic here have a well defined wet-dry season the wet season being
approximately from October to February - March
<p>Where I live in Adelaide South Australia and this is also true of southern
Australia, our weather is more frontal, and Melbourne cops it worse at
times than Adelaide being about 400 miles more south than us. Our wettest
months seem to be July - September and our hottest months being January
to early March with the temp&nbsp; (in South Australia) reaching the low
100's to 115 f depending where you are.
<p>South Australia has the dubius reputation of being the driest State
of the driest Continent and Island in the world, and 3/4's of S.Aust is
desert.
<p>*HUG*
<p>Richard
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From: "Chas & Helen Osborn" <hosborn at tassie.net.au>
To: "Aussie weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Strahan Weather
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 09:13:10 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Everyone</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Strong winds here overnight with the airport 
recording 25kt with gusts to 45kt.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>A storm warning is current south of here. It is 
lucky they don't allow dogs on chains on Maatsuyker Island.<BR></FONT><FONT 
face=Arial size=2></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Strahan Tasmania</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>TASMANIAN COASTAL REPORTS<BR>Issued at 0647 on Wednesday the 7th of August 
2002<BR><BR><BR>CAPE SORELL<BR> WIND: W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 29KT<BR>Wave rider, 
significant wave height:&nbsp; 5.6m<BR> Maximum height over the past 3 
hours:&nbsp; 10.8m<BR> Period:&nbsp; 12 sec<BR><BR>MARRAWAH<BR> WIND: 
SW&nbsp;&nbsp; 25KT, GUSTS TO 40KT,<BR> VISIBILITY 4000M, 
SHOWERS&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
<BR>CAPE GRIM<BR> WIND: W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 36KT, GUSTS TO 46KT,<BR> RECENT 
PRECIPITATION&nbsp; <BR><BR>KING IS AP<BR> WIND: W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 21KT, GUSTS 
TO 34KT,<BR> RECENT PRECIPITATION&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>MAATSUYKER IS<BR> WIND: WNW&nbsp; 57KT,<BR> DISTANT PRECIPITATION 
<BR><BR><BR>LOW ROCKY PT<BR> WIND: W&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
33KT<BR></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:32:05 +1000
From: Tim Grugeon <timg at cnn.net.au>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.0) Gecko/20020530
X-Accept-Language: en-us, en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Bye for now
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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Gidday All,<br>
<br>
Just like to let you all know that I am going to unsubscribe from the aussie-wx
mailing list for a while. Due to other commitments, I have being lacking
the time to be actively involved on the list. If you wish to ever get onto
me in person, you can email me at <a href="mailto:tim at hunterweather.com">tim at hunterweather.com</a>
or through this address. <br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Tim Grugeon<br>
Maitland, NSW<br>
<a href="http://www.hunterweather.com">http://www.hunterweather.com</a><br>
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Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:59:51 +1000
From: Matthew Smith <tornado at cnn.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Chase report for 3rd August 2002
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Very nice Michael !!!

Matt Smith

Michael Thompson wrote:

> I have placed my chase report for the 3rd of August online. Some nice
> photos, nothing severe, but nice colours, etc.
>
> http://ozthunder.com/chase/chase32.htm
>
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 16:58:04 +1000
From: Peter Creswick <ventus45 at ihug.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: AIRS - Atmospheric Infrared Sounder
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com



http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/airs/

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	<div align="center"><font face="arial, helvetica, verdata, sans-serif" size="-1" color="#AA7C00"><b><i>Weather and Climate Modeling for the 21st Century</i></b></font></div>
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   			<td><font color="#0E69A7" size="4" face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans serif"><b>FIRST IMAGES FROM NASA'S "THERMOMETER IN THE SKY" SIZZLE </b></font>
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			<IMG SRC="images/vis_ramasun_420.jpg" ALT="" WIDTH="420" HEIGHT="281" ALIGN="middle"></a>
			<br>
			<b>One of the four images of Tropical Cyclone Ramasun from the AIRS Sounding System - <a href="typhoon_ramasun.html">More information...</a></b> 
			<p>
The old adage that everyone complains about the weather, but no one does anything about it, may soon fall by the wayside thanks to the quality of data from NASA's new "thermometer in the sky" - a suite of three advanced weather instruments aboard the Aqua spacecraft.  
<p>
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	<font size="1" face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans serif">Measuring atmospheric temperatures over the eastern Mediterranean<br><a href="easternmediterranean.html">more images</a></font></td></tr></table></td>
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First images from the Atmospheric Infrared Sounder spectrometer and its two companion instruments--the Advanced Microwave Sounding Unit  and the Humidity Sounder for Brazil--are exceeding the expectations of the world meteorological community.  The results, project scientists say, will be substantially increased accuracy of short-term weather predictions, improved tracking of severe weather events like hurricanes and advances in climate research.    
<p>
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	<font size="1" face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans serif">Moisture streams in the troposphere over northern Europe<br><a href="england.html">more images</a></font></td></tr></table></td>
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"The three sounding instruments of the Atmospheric Infrared Sounder system will comprehensively capture a continuous, detailed picture of Earth's atmosphere for use in global weather prediction and climate studies," said Dr. Moustafa Chahine, science-team leader at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., which manages the experiment.  "The instruments are in excellent health and are ready to serve NASA, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, or NOAA, and the broader climate research community." 
<p><b>- Read the full <a href="airs_firstlight_newsrelease.txt">NASA Press Release</a>.</b>
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			<td><font face="arial, helvetica, verdata, sans-serif" size="-2" color="#002BB2">The Atmospheric Infrared Sounder (AIRS) instrument will make highly accurate measurements of air temperature, humidity, clouds, and surface temperature. The data collected by AIRS will be used by scientists around the world to better understand weather and climate. AIRS is one of six instruments onboard NASA's Aqua spacecraft.</font></td>
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	<a href="publicinfo.html" target="_blank">AIRS Brochure/Fact Sheets/Poster</a><br>
	<a href="http://aqua.nasa.gov" target="_blank">Aqua Web Site</a><br>
	<a href="images/boost_profile.gif" target="_blank">Aqua Boost Profile</a><br>
	<a href="http://www.vandenberg.af.mil/" target="_blank">Vandenberg Air Force Base</a><br>
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	<a href="http://jupiter02.gsfc.nasa.gov/reports/aqua/dailystatus.htm"><font color="#0E69A7" size="4" face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans serif"><b>AQUA Daily Status</b></font></a>

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	<font color="#0E69A7" size="4" face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans serif"><b>Webcasts</b></font><br>
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	<font face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif" size="-2"> 
	Archives of webcasts produced for the Aqua mission, including the launch webcast, can be found on the <a href="http://aqua.nasa.gov/outreach/webcast.html"><b>Aqua Webcast Page</b></a>.<br>
	</font>
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	<font color="#0E69A7" size="4" face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans serif"><b>Spotlights</b></font><br>
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	<font face="arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif" size="-2"> 
	<a href="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/earth/features/airs.html" target="_blank"><b>Building Better Forecasts</b></a><br>
	<img src="images/spacer.gif" width="162" height="4">
	<a href="http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/profiles/olsen/" target="_blank"><b><i>A Conversation With...</i><br>Dr. Edward Olsen, Astronomer and Earth Scientist</b></a>
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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 03:23:59 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<DIV>What do you suppose accounts for the extreme dryness of South Australia? I 
hope this isn't an overly stupid question, that's why I'm asking people with a 
good idea on this matter.(Ya'll would know more about this than I would). 
THANKS!!!</DIV>
<DIV>Also, what would be the southern boundary of the Tropics in 
Australia?</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=ra7167 at chariot.net.au href="mailto:ra7167 at chariot.net.au">Richard 
  Albury</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 06, 2002 9:32 
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>&nbsp; 
  <P>arky dave wrote: 
  <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE="CITE">
    <STYLE></STYLE>
    <FONT face=Arial><FONT size=-1>G'Week to ALL:</FONT></FONT><FONT 
    face=Arial><FONT size=-1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I was just 
    wondering: Does EVERYPLACE in Australia have a sharply defined "dry" and 
    "wet" season. Where I am, Mena, and most of the rest of the US have no 
    sharply defined dry/wet seasons. Exceptions may be the monsoon season in the 
    desert Southwest and the Wintertime rains in Southern California. As said 
    before, here, we seldom see dry periods for more than 14 straight days; so I 
    really can't imagine waiting 6 months or so to see a good 
    rain.</FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT 
    size=-1>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Have a good 
    one&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
    Powell</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>Hi arky mate <BR>Tropic here have a well 
  defined wet-dry season the wet season being approximately from October to 
  February - March 
  <P>Where I live in Adelaide South Australia and this is also true of southern 
  Australia, our weather is more frontal, and Melbourne cops it worse at times 
  than Adelaide being about 400 miles more south than us. Our wettest months 
  seem to be July - September and our hottest months being January to early 
  March with the temp&nbsp; (in South Australia) reaching the low 100's to 115 f 
  depending where you are. 
  <P>South Australia has the dubius reputation of being the driest State of the 
  driest Continent and Island in the world, and 3/4's of S.Aust is desert. 
  <P>*HUG* 
  <P>Richard </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

X-Originating-IP: [144.132.18.241]
From: "Liam Domanski" <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Small funnel in Donvale this arvo
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 18:32:18 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2002 08:32:21.0680 (UTC) FILETIME=[F2EA1B00:01C23DEC]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi all

Just happened to look up as I was coming out of the garage this afternoon 
(about 17:10), and saw a small funnel.

We'd just had a brief shower (and some very sparse small hail), and the cell 
was moving off to the W.

I ran inside and grabbed my digital camera and managed to get one good shot 
that shows the funnel.

I'll try to get it up to view soon.


Just goes to show.  Keep your eyes on the sky!  Especially in Vic (home of 
tornadoes and occasional drizzle)

GO VIC!!!!!




Liam



_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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</x-flowed>
From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Mother nature
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:46:04 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mother nature is playing some funny tricks here in 
the lead up to Spring. Last year the wattle trees in the forest came out in very 
early July and Early August 10-12kms SW of there (my school bus route). This 
year the reverse has happened but a month later. The wattle in the forest 
doesn't even look like coming out yet. Wonder what mother nature is telling me 
here :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Mother nature
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:24:45 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
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</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>My read on it would be that early flowerings etc 
are because of good soil conditions just prior, and not because the plants have 
some kind of inner predictive knowledge about weather to come.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Ken</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A 
href="http://www.predictweather.com">www.predictweather.com</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=bussie at netc.net.au href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au">Bussy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 07, 2002 8:46 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Mother nature</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mother nature is playing some funny tricks here 
  in the lead up to Spring. Last year the wattle trees in the forest came out in 
  very early July and Early August 10-12kms SW of there (my school bus route). 
  This year the reverse has happened but a month later. The wattle in the forest 
  doesn't even look like coming out yet. Wonder what mother nature is telling me 
  here :-)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

X-Sender: vk3jed-1 at 202.12.87.169
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 21:31:22 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Mother nature
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 06:46 PM 7/08/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Mother nature is playing some funny tricks here in the lead up to Spring. 
>Last year the wattle trees in the forest came out in very early July and 
>Early August 10-12kms SW of there (my school bus route). This year the 
>reverse has happened but a month later. The wattle in the forest doesn't 
>even look like coming out yet. Wonder what mother nature is telling me here :-)

Wattles have been out in Melbourne for weeks, in case anyone's interested. :)

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 22:57:26 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
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Hi all.
I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this tornado....and
that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no doubt
about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event, considering
that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not very
significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to weaken
and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the ground in
just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!! regards
Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>
>
> > Jimmy,
> >
> > it was a tornado.
> >
> > Jane
> > --------------------------------
> > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> >
> > ASWA - Victoria
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> >
> >
> > > Hi Paul,
> > >
> > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing
the
> > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
> > damage
> > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it
was
> a
> > > tornado or not.
> > >
> > > Good stuff.
> > >
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Hey All,
> > > >
> > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of
MSC
> or
> > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
> quoted
> > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > >
> > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images
from
> > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > >though.
> > > >
> > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > >
> > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > >
> > > >Paul Yole
> > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > >
> > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > > from
> > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > NSW Australia
> > >
> > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >
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>
>
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From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail Report - Local Paper
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:05:59 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2002 13:07:46.0964 (UTC) FILETIME=[6CC05540:01C23E13]
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Hi Don,
I presumed they haled an airconditioned Taxi!
----- Original Message -----
From: Don White <donwhite at ozemail.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hail Report - Local Paper


> "Within minutes of the hale temperatures plummeted in Bathurst."- quote
> from the  press report.... country journalism for you - just as well
> they have good subbies.
> Don W
>
> David.Carroll at CountryEnergy.com.au wrote:
> >
> >
http://www.bathurst.yourguide.com.au/detail.asp?class=news&subclass=local&st
ory_id=169359&category=general%20news
> >
> > HI all.
> >
> > Report and pic of hail in Bathurst at this above website.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
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> > information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and
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> > sender. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual
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> > not necessarily the views of Country Energy.
> >
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From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Chase report for 3rd August 2002
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:10:17 +1000
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Hi Michael.
 Very nice pics and excellent contrast, some of those updrafts are very
solid. regards Clyve H.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Thompson <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:16 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Chase report for 3rd August 2002


> I have placed my chase report for the 3rd of August online. Some nice
> photos, nothing severe, but nice colours, etc.
>
> http://ozthunder.com/chase/chase32.htm
>
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From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:32:48 +1000
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Jimmy and all,

I think you'll find that gustnadoes are still tornadoes - just tornadoes not
actually associated with storm-scale rotation.  In the case mentioned in
your email from Novemnber 22 1999, there was in fact a funnel cloud
associated with the dust whirl (see link below) but whether this was
generated from storm scale rotation (of which there was some evidence) or
some other force is debateable.  Given the definition in the NOAA Storm
Spotters Glossary, a gustnado is still a tornado and as such the event
mentioned above was in fact a tornado.

http://www.australiasevereweather.com/photography/photos/1999/1122mp03.jpg

*Extract from A COMPREHENSIVE GLOSSARY OF WEATHER TERMS FOR STORM SPOTTERS
by Michael Branick - NOAA/WFO Norman*
"Gustnado (or Gustinado) - [Slang], gust front tornado. A small tornado,
usually weak and short-lived, that occurs along the gust front of a
thunderstorm. Often it is visible only as a debris cloud or dust whirl near
the ground. Gustnadoes are not associated with storm-scale rotation (i.e.
mesocyclones); they are more likely to be associated visually with a shelf
cloud than with a wall cloud."

Link to NOAA Storm Spotters Glossary:

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/severewx/branick2.html

"What is a tornado?" by Charles A. Doswell III looks into the gustnado in
quite a bit of detail.  Doswell says, "The visual appearances of true
gustnadoes (as opposed to tornadoes along a gust front, which are manifestly
different phenomena) indicate they are shallow (perhaps 10-100 m deep) with
no apparent connection to any process happening at cloud base or
above....There seems to be a disturbing trend to refer to all tornadoes
occurring on a gust front as "gustnadoes" whereas I have tried, apparently
without success, to confine the term to the shallow vortices on gust fronts
that seem not to extend as far as cloud base."

Based on this definition, you then have to make a clear distinction between
a tornado and a gustnado.  And from this, you would then have to class the
event of 22nd November 1999 as a tornado given the presence of the funnel
cloud at cloud base level.


As for the Euroa tornado....was it a tornado? - that is the question!

On the positive side....

Here are some more extracts from "What is a tornado?" by Charles A. Doswell
III.

"The public at large has many misconceptions about tornadoes, a notable one
being that unless the condensation cloud associated with that rotating
column of air is touching the surface, it is not a tornado. This is
manifestly untrue, as many storm chasers realize fully. Since it is the wind
associated with the rotating air column that does the damage, it is the
moving air (wind) and not the cloud that constitutes the tornado....It is
quite possible for the circulation to be more or less completely invisible
for at least some portion of the life cycle of the event"

and furthermore....

"When the visible funnel does not reach the surface, silly reports of a
"funnel cloud accompanied by wind damage" can occur, or such absurdities are
reported as "The funnel only reached treetop level" or whatever. We probably
will find it difficult ever to convince the public as a whole that a tornado
is wind and not the funnel cloud. Hopefully, no self-respecting
meteorologist would do anything to perpetuate such misconceptions. Also,
storm chasers who believe this could get into a lot of trouble, quickly! By
the way, "tornado on the ground" is redundant, since to be a tornado, the
damaging winds have to be present at the surface at that time."

Now for the negative side....

"Among chasers, it is a common assumption that if a funnel cloud extends
halfway or more to the ground from cloud base, there almost certainly is a
tornadic circulation at the surface. This may or may not be true in any
specific instance ... it probably is more right than wrong. For official
purposes, however, such a "storm chaser's rule" is not a legitimate
assumption; by definition, one must confirm the existence of a damaging
circulation at the surface before the event can legitimately be called a
tornado. If such a confirmation cannot be made, the event must be considered
to be a funnel cloud or a "possible" tornado."

...and now some more for the positive side....

"Recent research, some connected with the VORTEX program, has made it clear
that vortical flows are often present at the surface, even without any
visible funnel cloud. If a condensation funnel is present that does not
"touch" the surface, some sort of "circulation" [10] is virtually certain to
be present, but it may not be sufficient to raise debris. In the absence of
debris, it is hard to know if the situation has become tornadic or not."

So....was it a tornado?  From the evidence above, the pictures and the
reports I've read and heard from Jane I would say that it is a tornado.

If anyone wishes to read the full essay "What is a tornado?" by Charles A.
Doswell III. you can find it here:

http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/doswell/public_html//a_tornado/atornado.html

It is a great read and it asks and answers many of the questions about the
current definition/s of a tornado.

Regards,

Andrew McDonald







----- Original Message -----
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> Hi Anthony,
>
> "that the chances are so
> high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> almost definately a tornado."
>
> Ahhhh - I agree with that concept and that is my opinion - it is most
> likely a tornado.
>
> Who was the person in the BoM who noted it as a funnel? Perhaps they need
> to be told of the damage track. Was a damage survey done? And if so by
whom?
>
>
> Now check out this US report and the photograph associated with it
>
> http://www.onthefront.ws/mar2902.htm    take particular note what they
call it
>
> http://www.onthefront.ws/images/32902v5.jpg
>
>
> Anyway, that's science, full of debate.
>
> By the way, I have been also looking into the dust whirls of November 22
> 1999 in SE Qld. The consensus seems to point to gustnado after all despite
> the dust whirls.
>
> http://www.australiasevereweather.com/tornado.htm  go down to the dust
> whirls. Not enough evidence.
>
> You will see during the ASWA Conference why!!!
>
> Jimmy Deguara
>
>
> At 06:42 PM 6/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >I think you have to say that since you can visibly see the funnel cloud
> >to about 90% of the ground (trees below that), that the chances are so
> >high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> >almost definately a tornado.
> >
> >Besides, Jane mentioned there was a damage track reported too I think???
> >
> >AC
> >
> >Jimmy Deguara wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Paul,
> > >
> > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing
the
> > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
damage
> > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it
was a
> > > tornado or not.
> > >
> > > Good stuff.
> > >
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >Hey All,
> > > >
> > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of
MSC or
> > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
quoted
> > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > >
> > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images
from
> > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > >though.
> > > >
> > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > >
> > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > >
> > > >Paul Yole
> > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > >
> > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> > > >  message.
> > >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > > from
> > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > NSW Australia
> > >
> > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >--
> >Anthony Cornelius
> >Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
> >Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
> >(07) 3390 4812
> >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Jimmy Deguara
> Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
>
> from
> Schofields, Sydney
> NSW Australia
>
> e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
>
> Web Page with Michael Bath
>
> Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> http://www.australiasevereweather.com
>
> President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:07:24 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi Andrew,

There is no evidence that that was a funnel. I a not suggesting it either 
way. However, I can say that earlier in the piece there seemed to be 
another funnel but that was may not have been associated with the 
dustwhirls. In hind site, we were too far away to be calling it anything.

What I am calling it then is possible tornado/ gustnado. There was a lot of 
outflow as that storm was becoming outflow dominant and I believe it met 
some weaker inflow for the rear NW part of the storm was typical of the 
wind profile on that day. This explains the anti-cyclonic rotation of the 
dustwhirls.

As to the gustnado business, actual gustnadoes are not counted as tornadoes 
in the US otherwise there will be thousands a year. But as to  We saw 
several gustnadoes in a 30 minute period. Whether a funnel related to the 
dustwhirls, I am not sure - very few are documented.

Jimmy Deguara

At 11:32 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Jimmy and all,
>
>I think you'll find that gustnadoes are still tornadoes - just tornadoes not
>actually associated with storm-scale rotation.  In the case mentioned in
>your email from Novemnber 22 1999, there was in fact a funnel cloud
>associated with the dust whirl (see link below) but whether this was
>generated from storm scale rotation (of which there was some evidence) or
>some other force is debateable.  Given the definition in the NOAA Storm
>Spotters Glossary, a gustnado is still a tornado and as such the event
>mentioned above was in fact a tornado.
>
>http://www.australiasevereweather.com/photography/photos/1999/1122mp03.jpg
>
>*Extract from A COMPREHENSIVE GLOSSARY OF WEATHER TERMS FOR STORM SPOTTERS
>by Michael Branick - NOAA/WFO Norman*
>"Gustnado (or Gustinado) - [Slang], gust front tornado. A small tornado,
>usually weak and short-lived, that occurs along the gust front of a
>thunderstorm. Often it is visible only as a debris cloud or dust whirl near
>the ground. Gustnadoes are not associated with storm-scale rotation (i.e.
>mesocyclones); they are more likely to be associated visually with a shelf
>cloud than with a wall cloud."
>
>Link to NOAA Storm Spotters Glossary:
>
>http://www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/severewx/branick2.html
>
>"What is a tornado?" by Charles A. Doswell III looks into the gustnado in
>quite a bit of detail.  Doswell says, "The visual appearances of true
>gustnadoes (as opposed to tornadoes along a gust front, which are manifestly
>different phenomena) indicate they are shallow (perhaps 10-100 m deep) with
>no apparent connection to any process happening at cloud base or
>above....There seems to be a disturbing trend to refer to all tornadoes
>occurring on a gust front as "gustnadoes" whereas I have tried, apparently
>without success, to confine the term to the shallow vortices on gust fronts
>that seem not to extend as far as cloud base."
>
>Based on this definition, you then have to make a clear distinction between
>a tornado and a gustnado.  And from this, you would then have to class the
>event of 22nd November 1999 as a tornado given the presence of the funnel
>cloud at cloud base level.
>
>
>As for the Euroa tornado....was it a tornado? - that is the question!
>
>On the positive side....
>
>Here are some more extracts from "What is a tornado?" by Charles A. Doswell
>III.
>
>"The public at large has many misconceptions about tornadoes, a notable one
>being that unless the condensation cloud associated with that rotating
>column of air is touching the surface, it is not a tornado. This is
>manifestly untrue, as many storm chasers realize fully. Since it is the wind
>associated with the rotating air column that does the damage, it is the
>moving air (wind) and not the cloud that constitutes the tornado....It is
>quite possible for the circulation to be more or less completely invisible
>for at least some portion of the life cycle of the event"
>
>and furthermore....
>
>"When the visible funnel does not reach the surface, silly reports of a
>"funnel cloud accompanied by wind damage" can occur, or such absurdities are
>reported as "The funnel only reached treetop level" or whatever. We probably
>will find it difficult ever to convince the public as a whole that a tornado
>is wind and not the funnel cloud. Hopefully, no self-respecting
>meteorologist would do anything to perpetuate such misconceptions. Also,
>storm chasers who believe this could get into a lot of trouble, quickly! By
>the way, "tornado on the ground" is redundant, since to be a tornado, the
>damaging winds have to be present at the surface at that time."
>
>Now for the negative side....
>
>"Among chasers, it is a common assumption that if a funnel cloud extends
>halfway or more to the ground from cloud base, there almost certainly is a
>tornadic circulation at the surface. This may or may not be true in any
>specific instance ... it probably is more right than wrong. For official
>purposes, however, such a "storm chaser's rule" is not a legitimate
>assumption; by definition, one must confirm the existence of a damaging
>circulation at the surface before the event can legitimately be called a
>tornado. If such a confirmation cannot be made, the event must be considered
>to be a funnel cloud or a "possible" tornado."
>
>...and now some more for the positive side....
>
>"Recent research, some connected with the VORTEX program, has made it clear
>that vortical flows are often present at the surface, even without any
>visible funnel cloud. If a condensation funnel is present that does not
>"touch" the surface, some sort of "circulation" [10] is virtually certain to
>be present, but it may not be sufficient to raise debris. In the absence of
>debris, it is hard to know if the situation has become tornadic or not."
>
>So....was it a tornado?  From the evidence above, the pictures and the
>reports I've read and heard from Jane I would say that it is a tornado.
>
>If anyone wishes to read the full essay "What is a tornado?" by Charles A.
>Doswell III. you can find it here:
>
>http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/doswell/public_html//a_tornado/atornado.html
>
>It is a great read and it asks and answers many of the questions about the
>current definition/s of a tornado.
>
>Regards,
>
>Andrew McDonald
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:26 PM
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>
>
> > Hi Anthony,
> >
> > "that the chances are so
> > high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> > almost definately a tornado."
> >
> > Ahhhh - I agree with that concept and that is my opinion - it is most
> > likely a tornado.
> >
> > Who was the person in the BoM who noted it as a funnel? Perhaps they need
> > to be told of the damage track. Was a damage survey done? And if so by
>whom?
> >
> >
> > Now check out this US report and the photograph associated with it
> >
> > http://www.onthefront.ws/mar2902.htm    take particular note what they
>call it
> >
> > http://www.onthefront.ws/images/32902v5.jpg
> >
> >
> > Anyway, that's science, full of debate.
> >
> > By the way, I have been also looking into the dust whirls of November 22
> > 1999 in SE Qld. The consensus seems to point to gustnado after all despite
> > the dust whirls.
> >
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com/tornado.htm  go down to the dust
> > whirls. Not enough evidence.
> >
> > You will see during the ASWA Conference why!!!
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> >
> > At 06:42 PM 6/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >I think you have to say that since you can visibly see the funnel cloud
> > >to about 90% of the ground (trees below that), that the chances are so
> > >high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> > >almost definately a tornado.
> > >
> > >Besides, Jane mentioned there was a damage track reported too I think???
> > >
> > >AC
> > >
> > >Jimmy Deguara wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Paul,
> > > >
> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing
>the
> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
>damage
> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it
>was a
> > > > tornado or not.
> > > >
> > > > Good stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > >
> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Hey All,
> > > > >
> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of
>MSC or
> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
>quoted
> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > > >
> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images
>from
> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > > >though.
> > > > >
> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > > >
> > > > >Paul Yole
> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > > >
> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > > >
> > > > from
> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > > NSW Australia
> > > >
> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > > >
> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > > >
> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > > >
> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >
> > > >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >--
> > >Anthony Cornelius
> > >Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
> > >Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
> > >(07) 3390 4812
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > >  message.
> > >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

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 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 23:38:41 +0930
From: Richard Albury <ra7167 at chariot.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com




arky dave wrote:

>  What do you suppose accounts for the extreme dryness of South
> Australia? I hope this isn't an overly stupid question, that's why I'm
> asking people with a good idea on this matter.(Ya'll would know more
> about this than I would). THANKS!!!Also, what would be the southern
> boundary of the Tropics in Australia?

Hi Arky

A question honestly asked is never stupid. It's by asking questions you
learn.

After chatting with me on yahoo. many Americans have started to realize
just how big Australia really is

Basically the tropical boundary is the Tropic of Capricorn crossing
Queensland, Northern Territory and Western Australia on the 26th
latitude

Cheers

Richard S.Australia

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X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 00:11:33 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi Clyve and Jane,

Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the video 
stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested, the video 
is clearer.

Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?

Jimmy Deguara

At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi all.
>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this tornado....and
>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no doubt
>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event, considering
>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not very
>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to weaken
>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the ground in
>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!! regards
>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>
>
> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> >
> >
> > > Jimmy,
> > >
> > > it was a tornado.
> > >
> > > Jane
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > >
> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > >
> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > --------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Paul,
> > > >
> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing
>the
> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
> > > damage
> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it
>was
> > a
> > > > tornado or not.
> > > >
> > > > Good stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > >
> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Hey All,
> > > > >
> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of
>MSC
> > or
> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
> > quoted
> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > > >
> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images
>from
> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > > >though.
> > > > >
> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > > >
> > > > >Paul Yole
> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > > >
> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> > > your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
> >   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > > >
> > > > from
> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > > NSW Australia
> > > >
> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > > >
> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > > >
> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > > >
> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >
> > > >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > >  message.
> > >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 07:27:54 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)

Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9 minutes 
previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the video 
is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it also 
shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the tornado 
making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during the 
ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference itself.

Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but nobody 
answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben given?

Great to see science at work here.

Have a nice day.

Jimmy Deguara

At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Hi Clyve and Jane,
>
>Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the 
>video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested, 
>the video is clearer.
>
>Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
>
>Jimmy Deguara
>
>At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>>Hi all.
>>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this tornado....and
>>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no doubt
>>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event, considering
>>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not very
>>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
>>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to weaken
>>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the ground in
>>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
>>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
>>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!! regards
>>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
>>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
>>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>>
>>
>> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
>> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
>> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
>> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>> >
>> >
>> > > Jimmy,
>> > >
>> > > it was a tornado.
>> > >
>> > > Jane
>> > > --------------------------------
>> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
>> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>> > >
>> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
>> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>> > >
>> > > ASWA - Victoria
>> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>> > > --------------------------------
>> > >
>> > > ----- Original Message -----
>> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
>> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
>> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > > Hi Paul,
>> > > >
>> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to really
>> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing
>>the
>> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
>> > > damage
>> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it
>>was
>> > a
>> > > > tornado or not.
>> > > >
>> > > > Good stuff.
>> > > >
>> > > > Jimmy Deguara
>> > > >
>> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>> > > > >Hey All,
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
>> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
>> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of
>>MSC
>> > or
>> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
>> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
>> > quoted
>> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
>> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images
>>from
>> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
>> > > > >though.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
>> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Paul Yole
>> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
>> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
>> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
>> > > > >
>> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > > > >
>> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
>> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>> > > your
>> > > > >  message.
>> > > >
>> >   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>> > > >
>> > > > -----------------------------------------
>> > > > Jimmy Deguara
>> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
>> > > >
>> > > > from
>> > > > Schofields, Sydney
>> > > > NSW Australia
>> > > >
>> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
>> > > >
>> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
>> > > >
>> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
>> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
>> > > >
>> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
>> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>> > > >
>> > > >
>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
>> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>> > your
>> > > >  message.
>> > >
>>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>> > >
>> > >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>>to:majordomo at world.std.com
>> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>>your
>> > >  message.
>> > >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>> >  message.
>> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>>
>>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>>  message.
>>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>-----------------------------------------
>Jimmy Deguara
>Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
>
>from
>Schofields, Sydney
>NSW Australia
>
>e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
>
>Web Page with Michael Bath
>
>Australian Severe Weather Home Page
>http://www.australiasevereweather.com
>
>President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
>http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>message.
>-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Simon Angell" <seangell at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:52:23 -0700
Organization: www.canberra-wx.com
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2002 13:52:30.0067 (UTC) FILETIME=[AC015C30:01C23E19]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


We will see this Video at the AGM, if so im looking foward to it...oh and
meeting Jane :o) (and everyone else)

Simon
www.canberra-wx.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> Hi all.
> I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this tornado....and
> that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no doubt
> about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event, considering
> that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not very
> significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to
weaken
> and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the ground
in
> just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!! regards
> Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>
>
> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> >
> >
> > > Jimmy,
> > >
> > > it was a tornado.
> > >
> > > Jane
> > > --------------------------------
> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > >
> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > >
> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > --------------------------------
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Paul,
> > > >
> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
really
> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing
> the
> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
> > > damage
> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it
> was
> > a
> > > > tornado or not.
> > > >
> > > > Good stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > >
> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Hey All,
> > > > >
> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of
> MSC
> > or
> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
> > quoted
> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > > >
> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images
> from
> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > > >though.
> > > > >
> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > > >
> > > > >Paul Yole
> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > > >
> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> > > your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > > >
> > > > from
> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > > NSW Australia
> > > >
> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > > >
> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > > >
> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > > >
> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com

>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Simon Angell" <seangell at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 00:12:12 -0700
Organization: www.canberra-wx.com
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6700
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Aug 2002 14:12:18.0785 (UTC) FILETIME=[70895510:01C23E1C]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Thanks Macca,
Great research with some great examples. Thanks for taking the time to
research and write it.

cheers
Simon
www.canberra-wx.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 6:32 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> Jimmy and all,
>
> I think you'll find that gustnadoes are still tornadoes - just tornadoes
not
> actually associated with storm-scale rotation.  In the case mentioned in
> your email from Novemnber 22 1999, there was in fact a funnel cloud
> associated with the dust whirl (see link below) but whether this was
> generated from storm scale rotation (of which there was some evidence) or
> some other force is debateable.  Given the definition in the NOAA Storm
> Spotters Glossary, a gustnado is still a tornado and as such the event
> mentioned above was in fact a tornado.
>
> http://www.australiasevereweather.com/photography/photos/1999/1122mp03.jpg
>
> *Extract from A COMPREHENSIVE GLOSSARY OF WEATHER TERMS FOR STORM SPOTTERS
> by Michael Branick - NOAA/WFO Norman*
> "Gustnado (or Gustinado) - [Slang], gust front tornado. A small tornado,
> usually weak and short-lived, that occurs along the gust front of a
> thunderstorm. Often it is visible only as a debris cloud or dust whirl
near
> the ground. Gustnadoes are not associated with storm-scale rotation (i.e.
> mesocyclones); they are more likely to be associated visually with a shelf
> cloud than with a wall cloud."
>
> Link to NOAA Storm Spotters Glossary:
>
> http://www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/severewx/branick2.html
>
> "What is a tornado?" by Charles A. Doswell III looks into the gustnado in
> quite a bit of detail.  Doswell says, "The visual appearances of true
> gustnadoes (as opposed to tornadoes along a gust front, which are
manifestly
> different phenomena) indicate they are shallow (perhaps 10-100 m deep)
with
> no apparent connection to any process happening at cloud base or
> above....There seems to be a disturbing trend to refer to all tornadoes
> occurring on a gust front as "gustnadoes" whereas I have tried, apparently
> without success, to confine the term to the shallow vortices on gust
fronts
> that seem not to extend as far as cloud base."
>
> Based on this definition, you then have to make a clear distinction
between
> a tornado and a gustnado.  And from this, you would then have to class the
> event of 22nd November 1999 as a tornado given the presence of the funnel
> cloud at cloud base level.
>
>
> As for the Euroa tornado....was it a tornado? - that is the question!
>
> On the positive side....
>
> Here are some more extracts from "What is a tornado?" by Charles A.
Doswell
> III.
>
> "The public at large has many misconceptions about tornadoes, a notable
one
> being that unless the condensation cloud associated with that rotating
> column of air is touching the surface, it is not a tornado. This is
> manifestly untrue, as many storm chasers realize fully. Since it is the
wind
> associated with the rotating air column that does the damage, it is the
> moving air (wind) and not the cloud that constitutes the tornado....It is
> quite possible for the circulation to be more or less completely invisible
> for at least some portion of the life cycle of the event"
>
> and furthermore....
>
> "When the visible funnel does not reach the surface, silly reports of a
> "funnel cloud accompanied by wind damage" can occur, or such absurdities
are
> reported as "The funnel only reached treetop level" or whatever. We
probably
> will find it difficult ever to convince the public as a whole that a
tornado
> is wind and not the funnel cloud. Hopefully, no self-respecting
> meteorologist would do anything to perpetuate such misconceptions. Also,
> storm chasers who believe this could get into a lot of trouble, quickly!
By
> the way, "tornado on the ground" is redundant, since to be a tornado, the
> damaging winds have to be present at the surface at that time."
>
> Now for the negative side....
>
> "Among chasers, it is a common assumption that if a funnel cloud extends
> halfway or more to the ground from cloud base, there almost certainly is a
> tornadic circulation at the surface. This may or may not be true in any
> specific instance ... it probably is more right than wrong. For official
> purposes, however, such a "storm chaser's rule" is not a legitimate
> assumption; by definition, one must confirm the existence of a damaging
> circulation at the surface before the event can legitimately be called a
> tornado. If such a confirmation cannot be made, the event must be
considered
> to be a funnel cloud or a "possible" tornado."
>
> ...and now some more for the positive side....
>
> "Recent research, some connected with the VORTEX program, has made it
clear
> that vortical flows are often present at the surface, even without any
> visible funnel cloud. If a condensation funnel is present that does not
> "touch" the surface, some sort of "circulation" [10] is virtually certain
to
> be present, but it may not be sufficient to raise debris. In the absence
of
> debris, it is hard to know if the situation has become tornadic or not."
>
> So....was it a tornado?  From the evidence above, the pictures and the
> reports I've read and heard from Jane I would say that it is a tornado.
>
> If anyone wishes to read the full essay "What is a tornado?" by Charles A.
> Doswell III. you can find it here:
>
> http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/doswell/public_html//a_tornado/atornado.html
>
> It is a great read and it asks and answers many of the questions about the
> current definition/s of a tornado.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew McDonald
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:26 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
>
>
> > Hi Anthony,
> >
> > "that the chances are so
> > high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> > almost definately a tornado."
> >
> > Ahhhh - I agree with that concept and that is my opinion - it is most
> > likely a tornado.
> >
> > Who was the person in the BoM who noted it as a funnel? Perhaps they
need
> > to be told of the damage track. Was a damage survey done? And if so by
> whom?
> >
> >
> > Now check out this US report and the photograph associated with it
> >
> > http://www.onthefront.ws/mar2902.htm    take particular note what they
> call it
> >
> > http://www.onthefront.ws/images/32902v5.jpg
> >
> >
> > Anyway, that's science, full of debate.
> >
> > By the way, I have been also looking into the dust whirls of November 22
> > 1999 in SE Qld. The consensus seems to point to gustnado after all
despite
> > the dust whirls.
> >
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com/tornado.htm  go down to the dust
> > whirls. Not enough evidence.
> >
> > You will see during the ASWA Conference why!!!
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> >
> > At 06:42 PM 6/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >I think you have to say that since you can visibly see the funnel cloud
> > >to about 90% of the ground (trees below that), that the chances are so
> > >high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> > >almost definately a tornado.
> > >
> > >Besides, Jane mentioned there was a damage track reported too I
think???
> > >
> > >AC
> > >
> > >Jimmy Deguara wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Paul,
> > > >
> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
really
> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs showing
> the
> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess the
> damage
> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether it
> was a
> > > > tornado or not.
> > > >
> > > > Good stuff.
> > > >
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > >
> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > >Hey All,
> > > > >
> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown in
> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention of
> MSC or
> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
> quoted
> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > > >
> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the images
> from
> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > > >though.
> > > > >
> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > > >
> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > > >
> > > > >Paul Yole
> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > > >
> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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of
> your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > > >
> > > > from
> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > > NSW Australia
> > > >
> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > > >
> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > > >
> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > > >
> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >
> > > >
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> your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >--
> > >Anthony Cornelius
> > >Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
> > >Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
> > >(07) 3390 4812
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
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> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:29:01 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-flowed>
At 11:38 PM 7/08/2002 +0930, you wrote:

>Basically the tropical boundary is the Tropic of Capricorn crossing
>Queensland, Northern Territory and Western Australia on the 26th
>latitude

Umm, I thought it was 23.5 degrees (or wherever the tilt of the Earth's 
axis is).  Definitely less than 26.

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Stargazer" <stargazer at picknowl.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 18:36:54 +0930
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Gravity is a myth... 

The Earth sucks! :oP

(sorry)

Regs. Paul.
(Stargazer)
http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:37 PM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


> Hi Ken,
> 
> I suggest that snow getting to ground has rather a lot to do with gravity
> and actually nothing to do with how cold it is.  
<snip>


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From: "twc" <twc at theweather.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:43:11 +1000
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Hmm, 

This is the reply I get when I put the query to Google...

<snip>
Your search - "Full moon heats Earth" - did not match any documents. 

Suggestions:
Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
Try different keywords.
Try more general keywords.
Also, you can try Google Answers for expert help with your search.
<snip>

A perplexed Craig.

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 1:37 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1

http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF13/1367.html

there's more too, Craig - just dial "Full moon heats Earth" into
google.com
and you'll get a whole swag of stuff
best
Ken
www.predictweather.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:59 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> Hi Ken,
>
> I'd certainly be interested in reading the references if you'd like to
> forward them.
>
> Craig
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2002 11:19
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> Hi Craig and all
> I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look for
where
> things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you name
it. I
> would say cold is another concept which has to come from somewhere.
Nor
can
> it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and arguably
even
> more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed with the
> direction in mind that cold travels.
> Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with all due
> respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to those
books
has
> much to contribute to this discussion.
> Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon has a
> heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995 Balling(Arizona
State
> University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global temps.
Temps
> in
> the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon and
coolest
> during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than 200
synodic
> cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of the
moon
> accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC. Significant
> enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also heats
the
> earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they found that
the
> poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This range
of
> temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a whole. It
> shows
> that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon but
the
> transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters
Earth's
> magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
radiation.
> All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants source
refs I
> can provide them. And there could be two discussions here - whether or
not
> it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it gets
colder
> over a 24 hour period.
> cheers
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:21 PM
> Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Hi Ken, all
> >
> > I'm concerned as to the "cold of space" term referred to. Most texts
on
> > meteorology include a diagram of the temperature as the altitude
> increases.
> > Firstly there is the "warm region" at around 50 km. Then temperature
> > increases rapidly above 100km.
> >
> > This is due to the rapid increase in mean free path of the molecules
> which
> > by this level are the lighter elements such as hydrogen and helium.
The
> > mean free path is also inversely proportional to pressure, so as
this
> > decreases the mean free path increases also. The problem is in the
> vastness
> > of space there are such few atoms/molecules to pass this energy to
any
> body
> > with great success. I think that the term "cold of space" is rather
> > misleading. There is little to no heat or "cool" (for want of a
better
> > word) stored in the near-vacuum of space.
> >
> > Atmospheric "cool" would be "created" in the upper levels of the
> > troposphere due to the free expansion of gas which results in a drop
in
> > temperature (according to the ideal gas law).
> >
> > I would agree with John Woodbridge in the idea that if the full moon
> > created clear skies, radiational cooling under these clear skies
would
> lead
> > to lower minimums around full moon. I don't have any statistical
evidence
> > to that side, so I will leave it there.
> >
> > Craig Arthur
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > Sent: Friday, 26 July 2002 02:15
> > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > Hi John
> > > so to say that it is cold, or has
> > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only
solid
> > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.
> > Hmm..interesting. The trouble is, you could say the same about heat,
> which
> > also comes via space. But we do have this word 'cold' and cold falls
just
> > as
> > heat rises. In fact one replaces the other. One could ask, where
does
> > atmospheric cold come from, assuming everything has a source. Then
the
> only
> > answer must surely be from upper levels and descending. The cold of
space
> > has been measured at minus 220.
> > > So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the upper
> > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in
fact be
> > > warmer...
> > I think I'd suggest that at airtide-out the density of the
atmosphere
was
> > thinner and the heat layer weakened, allowing cold to get through.
> > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous
email)
> then
> > it
> > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat
loss...
> > Not if the dispersing effect came from a stretching of the
atmosphere to
> a
> > greater height, which is what I think the Full moon does.
> > cheers
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 6:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > Hi Ken,
> > >
> > > Space is space, i.e., a virtual vacuum, so to say that it is cold,
or
> has
> > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only
solid
> > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.  And
in
> > fact,
> > > as you reach the upper layers of the atmosphere the temperature
> increases
> > > dramatically to be well above surface temperatures, even on cold
> moonless
> > > nights.  So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the
upper
> > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in
fact be
> > > warmer...  What I think you are seeing is that with a thinner
> atmosphere
> > it
> > > has less of a blanket effect, and thus heat radiates more readily
from
> > the
> > > surface and hence you get a lower surface temperature.  Then
again, it
> is
> > > well known that cloudless nights are much colder than cloudy ones,
due
> in
> > > this case, to clouds inhibiting surface radiation.  So, it seems
to me
> > that
> > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous
email)
> then
> > it
> > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat
loss...
> So
> > I
> > > would naturally expect to find a statistical correlation between
full
> > moon
> > > and colder nights if the theory is correct, rather than one
between
new
> > moon
> > > and colder nights.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > John W.
> > > >snip
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
Ring
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:25 PM
> > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > It is a feature of full moon that in the sunshine it is warm but
as
> soon
> > as
> > > the sun goes behind a cloud you are rushing for extra clothing,
even
in
> > > summer. If marathons are held around full moon in summer it is
when
> heat
> > > exhaustion is more likely to occur. The reason is the deeper air
tide,
> > just
> > > like the king tides in the water. When the moon is out of the sky,
> > airtide
> > > out, the cold of space comes closer to earth. A statistical check
on
> > night
> > > temperatures through winter will reveal that New moon nights are
always
> > > colder than full moon nights.
> > > Ken Ring
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Paul Yole" <pyole at lexicon.net>
> > > To: "Australian Weather Mailing List"
<aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:24 PM
> > > Subject: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hey All,
> > > >
> > > > What is up with this cold??? Walk outside and you freeze! Anyone
got
> an
> > > explanation for this??? Horsham's obs are:
> > > >
> > > > Horsham 12:00 5.7/2.2
> > > > Longerenong 12:00 5.6/1.5
> > > >
> > > > Doubt we'll see the forecast temp of 12C out here today.
> > > >
> > > > PaulY
> > > >
> > > > Paul Yole
> > > > State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > >
> > > > "I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > >
> > > >
> >
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> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>
 
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
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Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 18:39:10 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
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Well, Craig, I just went to Google and typed it in and got this response:
"Searched the web for Full moon heats earth.   Results 1 - 10 of about 
7,760. Search took 0.10 seconds "
I reckon that might be part of Ken's "whole swag of stuff".  I haven't 
had a chance to click on any of the results yet, but the summaries look 
like some of them are talking about the kinds of matters Ken has been 
sharing about.
Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "twc" <twc at theweather.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:43:11 +1000
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1

> Hmm, 
> 
> This is the reply I get when I put the query to Google...
> 
> <snip>
> Your search - "Full moon heats Earth" - did not match any documents. 
> 
> Suggestions:
> Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
> Try different keywords.
> Try more general keywords.
> Also, you can try Google Answers for expert help with your search.
> <snip>
> 
> A perplexed Craig.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 1:37 PM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> 
> http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF13/1367.html
> 
> there's more too, Craig - just dial "Full moon heats Earth" into
> google.com
> and you'll get a whole swag of stuff
> best
> Ken
> www.predictweather.com
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:59 AM
> Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> 
> 
> > Hi Ken,
> >
> > I'd certainly be interested in reading the references if you'd like
> to
> > forward them.
> >
> > Craig
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2002 11:19
> > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > Hi Craig and all
> > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look for
> where
> > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you name
> it. I
> > would say cold is another concept which has to come from somewhere.
> Nor
> can
> > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> arguably
> even
> > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed with the
> > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with all
> due
> > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to those
> books
> has
> > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon has a
> > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995 Balling(Arizona
> State
> > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global temps.
> Temps
> > in
> > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon and
> coolest
> > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than 200
> synodic
> > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of the
> moon
> > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> Significant
> > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also heats
> the
> > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they found
> that
> the
> > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This range
> of
> > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a whole.
> It
> > shows
> > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon but
> the
> > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters
> Earth's
> > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> radiation.
> > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants source
> refs I
> > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here - whether
> or
> not
> > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it gets
> colder
> > over a 24 hour period.
> > cheers
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:21 PM
> > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > Hi Ken, all
> > >
> > > I'm concerned as to the "cold of space" term referred to. Most
> texts
> on
> > > meteorology include a diagram of the temperature as the altitude
> > increases.
> > > Firstly there is the "warm region" at around 50 km. Then
> temperature
> > > increases rapidly above 100km.
> > >
> > > This is due to the rapid increase in mean free path of the
> molecules
> > which
> > > by this level are the lighter elements such as hydrogen and helium.
> The
> > > mean free path is also inversely proportional to pressure, so as
> this
> > > decreases the mean free path increases also. The problem is in the
> > vastness
> > > of space there are such few atoms/molecules to pass this energy to
> any
> > body
> > > with great success. I think that the term "cold of space" is rather
> > > misleading. There is little to no heat or "cool" (for want of a
> better
> > > word) stored in the near-vacuum of space.
> > >
> > > Atmospheric "cool" would be "created" in the upper levels of the
> > > troposphere due to the free expansion of gas which results in a
> drop
> in
> > > temperature (according to the ideal gas law).
> > >
> > > I would agree with John Woodbridge in the idea that if the full
> moon
> > > created clear skies, radiational cooling under these clear skies
> would
> > lead
> > > to lower minimums around full moon. I don't have any statistical
> evidence
> > > to that side, so I will leave it there.
> > >
> > > Craig Arthur
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > > Sent: Friday, 26 July 2002 02:15
> > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi John
> > > > so to say that it is cold, or has
> > > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only
> solid
> > > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.
> > > Hmm..interesting. The trouble is, you could say the same about
> heat,
> > which
> > > also comes via space. But we do have this word 'cold' and cold
> falls
> just
> > > as
> > > heat rises. In fact one replaces the other. One could ask, where
> does
> > > atmospheric cold come from, assuming everything has a source. Then
> the
> > only
> > > answer must surely be from upper levels and descending. The cold of
> space
> > > has been measured at minus 220.
> > > > So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the upper
> > > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in
> fact be
> > > > warmer...
> > > I think I'd suggest that at airtide-out the density of the
> atmosphere
> was
> > > thinner and the heat layer weakened, allowing cold to get through.
> > > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous
> email)
> > then
> > > it
> > > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat
> loss...
> > > Not if the dispersing effect came from a stretching of the
> atmosphere to
> > a
> > > greater height, which is what I think the Full moon does.
> > > cheers
> > > Ken
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 6:21 PM
> > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Ken,
> > > >
> > > > Space is space, i.e., a virtual vacuum, so to say that it is
> cold,
> or
> > has
> > > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only
> solid
> > > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.  And
> in
> > > fact,
> > > > as you reach the upper layers of the atmosphere the temperature
> > increases
> > > > dramatically to be well above surface temperatures, even on cold
> > moonless
> > > > nights.  So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the
> upper
> > > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in
> fact be
> > > > warmer...  What I think you are seeing is that with a thinner
> > atmosphere
> > > it
> > > > has less of a blanket effect, and thus heat radiates more readily
> from
> > > the
> > > > surface and hence you get a lower surface temperature.  Then
> again, it
> > is
> > > > well known that cloudless nights are much colder than cloudy
> ones,
> due
> > in
> > > > this case, to clouds inhibiting surface radiation.  So, it seems
> to me
> > > that
> > > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous
> email)
> > then
> > > it
> > > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat
> loss...
> > So
> > > I
> > > > would naturally expect to find a statistical correlation between
> full
> > > moon
> > > > and colder nights if the theory is correct, rather than one
> between
> new
> > > moon
> > > > and colder nights.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > > John W.
> > > > >snip
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Ring
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:25 PM
> > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > > It is a feature of full moon that in the sunshine it is warm but
> as
> > soon
> > > as
> > > > the sun goes behind a cloud you are rushing for extra clothing,
> even
> in
> > > > summer. If marathons are held around full moon in summer it is
> when
> > heat
> > > > exhaustion is more likely to occur. The reason is the deeper air
> tide,
> > > just
> > > > like the king tides in the water. When the moon is out of the
> sky,
> > > airtide
> > > > out, the cold of space comes closer to earth. A statistical check
> on
> > > night
> > > > temperatures through winter will reveal that New moon nights are
> always
> > > > colder than full moon nights.
> > > > Ken Ring
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Paul Yole" <pyole at lexicon.net>
> > > > To: "Australian Weather Mailing List"
> <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:24 PM
> > > > Subject: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hey All,
> > > > >
> > > > > What is up with this cold??? Walk outside and you freeze!
> Anyone
> got
> > an
> > > > explanation for this??? Horsham's obs are:
> > > > >
> > > > > Horsham 12:00 5.7/2.2
> > > > > Longerenong 12:00 5.6/1.5
> > > > >
> > > > > Doubt we'll see the forecast temp of 12C out here today.
> > > > >
> > > > > PaulY
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul Yole
> > > > > State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > > EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > > http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > > >
> > > > > "I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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> body of
> > > your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
> >
>  
> -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
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From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Chase report for 3rd August 2002
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 21:12:36 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Thanks Clyve, my mistake was chasing the early convection over the southern
highlands. There simply was not enough surface temperature to give solid
updrafts. That is why the Penrith storm did so well, it probably had another
5-8C of surface heating to play with. The ones over the ocean did not have
the temperature advantage, but lots extra moisture.

Michael

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Chase report for 3rd August 2002


> Hi Michael.
>  Very nice pics and excellent contrast, some of those updrafts are very
> solid. regards Clyve H.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Michael Thompson <thunder at ozthunder.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 11:16 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Chase report for 3rd August 2002
>
>
> > I have placed my chase report for the 3rd of August online. Some nice
> > photos, nothing severe, but nice colours, etc.
> >
> > http://ozthunder.com/chase/chase32.htm
> >
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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:00:37 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Craig
There must be something wrong with your system. I went in and got it again
the same as Phil. But anyway, just in case you can't find it, I think the
first article is probably the main one. It contains the following pertinent
comment..

"Shaffer and his colleagues think the cause is heat transfer within the
earth's atmosphere. They suspect that tidal pull from the full moon changes
major wind patterns in the upper atmosphere--perhaps affecting the jet
streams so loved by TV meteorologists, as they show these rivers of air
snaking above the world from west to east, nudging high- and low-pressure
systems around continental features, fencing warm air masses away from
colder ones. The Arizonans are presently guessing that the moon's
gravitational tug alters waves within the wind systems, somehow either
enhancing or suppressing their usual effects. But, whatever the exact
mechanism, the researchers are pretty sure that the polar air mass is warmer
under the full moon because somehow more equatorial warmth gets carried to
the ends of the earth..."

I did say refs with an "s" so here's another. It appeared in the New
Scientist of 1st April, p12, entitled "Tidal Warning: Is the Moon Turning up
the Earth's thermostat?" (from Source: Proceedings of the National Academy
of Sciences, 21 March 2000). If you are a subscriber I assume you can read
the article on their site which is www.newscientist.com.

Anyway, the main point I want to get across is, it's not just me making
claims about the moon's effect..
regards
Ken
www.predictweather.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 10:39 PM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> Well, Craig, I just went to Google and typed it in and got this response:
> "Searched the web for Full moon heats earth.   Results 1 - 10 of about
> 7,760. Search took 0.10 seconds "
> I reckon that might be part of Ken's "whole swag of stuff".  I haven't
> had a chance to click on any of the results yet, but the summaries look
> like some of them are talking about the kinds of matters Ken has been
> sharing about.
> Phil
> <><
>
> International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
> Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
> Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
> Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: "twc" <twc at theweather.com.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:43:11 +1000
> Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
> > Hmm,
> >
> > This is the reply I get when I put the query to Google...
> >
> > <snip>
> > Your search - "Full moon heats Earth" - did not match any documents.
> >
> > Suggestions:
> > Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
> > Try different keywords.
> > Try more general keywords.
> > Also, you can try Google Answers for expert help with your search.
> > <snip>
> >
> > A perplexed Craig.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com] On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 1:37 PM
> > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> > http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF13/1367.html
> >
> > there's more too, Craig - just dial "Full moon heats Earth" into
> > google.com
> > and you'll get a whole swag of stuff
> > best
> > Ken
> > www.predictweather.com
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:59 AM
> > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > Hi Ken,
> > >
> > > I'd certainly be interested in reading the references if you'd like
> > to
> > > forward them.
> > >
> > > Craig
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > > Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2002 11:19
> > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Craig and all
> > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look for
> > where
> > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you name
> > it. I
> > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from somewhere.
> > Nor
> > can
> > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > arguably
> > even
> > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed with the
> > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with all
> > due
> > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to those
> > books
> > has
> > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon has a
> > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995 Balling(Arizona
> > State
> > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global temps.
> > Temps
> > > in
> > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon and
> > coolest
> > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than 200
> > synodic
> > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of the
> > moon
> > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > Significant
> > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also heats
> > the
> > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they found
> > that
> > the
> > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This range
> > of
> > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a whole.
> > It
> > > shows
> > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon but
> > the
> > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters
> > Earth's
> > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > radiation.
> > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants source
> > refs I
> > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here - whether
> > or
> > not
> > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it gets
> > colder
> > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > cheers
> > > Ken
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:21 PM
> > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Ken, all
> > > >
> > > > I'm concerned as to the "cold of space" term referred to. Most
> > texts
> > on
> > > > meteorology include a diagram of the temperature as the altitude
> > > increases.
> > > > Firstly there is the "warm region" at around 50 km. Then
> > temperature
> > > > increases rapidly above 100km.
> > > >
> > > > This is due to the rapid increase in mean free path of the
> > molecules
> > > which
> > > > by this level are the lighter elements such as hydrogen and helium.
> > The
> > > > mean free path is also inversely proportional to pressure, so as
> > this
> > > > decreases the mean free path increases also. The problem is in the
> > > vastness
> > > > of space there are such few atoms/molecules to pass this energy to
> > any
> > > body
> > > > with great success. I think that the term "cold of space" is rather
> > > > misleading. There is little to no heat or "cool" (for want of a
> > better
> > > > word) stored in the near-vacuum of space.
> > > >
> > > > Atmospheric "cool" would be "created" in the upper levels of the
> > > > troposphere due to the free expansion of gas which results in a
> > drop
> > in
> > > > temperature (according to the ideal gas law).
> > > >
> > > > I would agree with John Woodbridge in the idea that if the full
> > moon
> > > > created clear skies, radiational cooling under these clear skies
> > would
> > > lead
> > > > to lower minimums around full moon. I don't have any statistical
> > evidence
> > > > to that side, so I will leave it there.
> > > >
> > > > Craig Arthur
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> > > > Sent: Friday, 26 July 2002 02:15
> > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi John
> > > > > so to say that it is cold, or has
> > > > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only
> > solid
> > > > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.
> > > > Hmm..interesting. The trouble is, you could say the same about
> > heat,
> > > which
> > > > also comes via space. But we do have this word 'cold' and cold
> > falls
> > just
> > > > as
> > > > heat rises. In fact one replaces the other. One could ask, where
> > does
> > > > atmospheric cold come from, assuming everything has a source. Then
> > the
> > > only
> > > > answer must surely be from upper levels and descending. The cold of
> > space
> > > > has been measured at minus 220.
> > > > > So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the upper
> > > > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in
> > fact be
> > > > > warmer...
> > > > I think I'd suggest that at airtide-out the density of the
> > atmosphere
> > was
> > > > thinner and the heat layer weakened, allowing cold to get through.
> > > > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous
> > email)
> > > then
> > > > it
> > > > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat
> > loss...
> > > > Not if the dispersing effect came from a stretching of the
> > atmosphere to
> > > a
> > > > greater height, which is what I think the Full moon does.
> > > > cheers
> > > > Ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 6:21 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > >
> > > > > Space is space, i.e., a virtual vacuum, so to say that it is
> > cold,
> > or
> > > has
> > > > > any particular temperature at all is rather inaccurate, as only
> > solid
> > > > > objects, liquids or gases can have a measurable temperature.  And
> > in
> > > > fact,
> > > > > as you reach the upper layers of the atmosphere the temperature
> > > increases
> > > > > dramatically to be well above surface temperatures, even on cold
> > > moonless
> > > > > nights.  So one could argue that at air tide out, the heat of the
> > upper
> > > > > layers of the atmosphere is closer to Earth, thus it should in
> > fact be
> > > > > warmer...  What I think you are seeing is that with a thinner
> > > atmosphere
> > > > it
> > > > > has less of a blanket effect, and thus heat radiates more readily
> > from
> > > > the
> > > > > surface and hence you get a lower surface temperature.  Then
> > again, it
> > > is
> > > > > well known that cloudless nights are much colder than cloudy
> > ones,
> > due
> > > in
> > > > > this case, to clouds inhibiting surface radiation.  So, it seems
> > to me
> > > > that
> > > > > if the full moon acts to disperse clouds (from your previous
> > email)
> > > then
> > > > it
> > > > > should be significantly colder at night due to radiated heat
> > loss...
> > > So
> > > > I
> > > > > would naturally expect to find a statistical correlation between
> > full
> > > > moon
> > > > > and colder nights if the theory is correct, rather than one
> > between
> > new
> > > > moon
> > > > > and colder nights.
> > > > >
> > > > > Regards,
> > > > > John W.
> > > > > >snip
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> > Ring
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 5:25 PM
> > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Paul
> > > > > It is a feature of full moon that in the sunshine it is warm but
> > as
> > > soon
> > > > as
> > > > > the sun goes behind a cloud you are rushing for extra clothing,
> > even
> > in
> > > > > summer. If marathons are held around full moon in summer it is
> > when
> > > heat
> > > > > exhaustion is more likely to occur. The reason is the deeper air
> > tide,
> > > > just
> > > > > like the king tides in the water. When the moon is out of the
> > sky,
> > > > airtide
> > > > > out, the cold of space comes closer to earth. A statistical check
> > on
> > > > night
> > > > > temperatures through winter will reveal that New moon nights are
> > always
> > > > > colder than full moon nights.
> > > > > Ken Ring
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Paul Yole" <pyole at lexicon.net>
> > > > > To: "Australian Weather Mailing List"
> > <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2002 2:24 PM
> > > > > Subject: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hey All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What is up with this cold??? Walk outside and you freeze!
> > Anyone
> > got
> > > an
> > > > > explanation for this??? Horsham's obs are:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Horsham 12:00 5.7/2.2
> > > > > > Longerenong 12:00 5.6/1.5
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Doubt we'll see the forecast temp of 12C out here today.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PaulY
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Paul Yole
> > > > > > State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > > > EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > > > http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
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> > -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
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From: "Stargazer" <stargazer at picknowl.com.au>
To: "Aussie-Weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Hot vs Cold
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 22:51:52 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
<DIV>So what is the opposite to cold... heat or hot?</DIV>
<DIV>I would say hot. I've heard of heating things but never colding things. 
</DIV>
<DIV>As an object looses heat energy we refer to it as cooling.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>What's hot &amp; what's cold? That all depends on you point of view. You 
say a&nbsp;red star is&nbsp;cooler then a blue star. I say there 
all&nbsp;flaming hot! :)&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>At what point does something stop being cold &amp; starts being hot (or 
vice-versa)?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Just had to stick my noes in...</DIV>
<DIV>(now waiting for it to be rubbed off :)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regs. Paul.<BR>(Stargazer)<BR><A 
href="http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer">http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer</A></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:02:57 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
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Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Jimmy,

Even though they are not counted as tornadoes they are still tornadoes
according to the NOAA definition.  If you take Doswell's definition they are
merely vortices.  Perhaps the dust whirl was a vorticy on the gust front but
it just seemed quite conincidental that there was a funnel shaped cloud tag
(photographed by Matt P and myself) which seemingly pointed in the general
direction of the dust whirls.  Granted the funnel couldn't visibly be seen
to be rotating but the dust whirl sure was.

It would be interesting to see some more study done on these smaller, less
respected vortices as I'm sure a lot could be learnt in both a
meteorological sense and from an aviation perspective.

Andrew McDonald



----- Original Message -----
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!


> Hi Andrew,
>
> There is no evidence that that was a funnel. I a not suggesting it either
> way. However, I can say that earlier in the piece there seemed to be
> another funnel but that was may not have been associated with the
> dustwhirls. In hind site, we were too far away to be calling it anything.
>
> What I am calling it then is possible tornado/ gustnado. There was a lot
of
> outflow as that storm was becoming outflow dominant and I believe it met
> some weaker inflow for the rear NW part of the storm was typical of the
> wind profile on that day. This explains the anti-cyclonic rotation of the
> dustwhirls.
>
> As to the gustnado business, actual gustnadoes are not counted as
tornadoes
> in the US otherwise there will be thousands a year. But as to  We saw
> several gustnadoes in a 30 minute period. Whether a funnel related to the
> dustwhirls, I am not sure - very few are documented.
>
> Jimmy Deguara
>
> At 11:32 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >Jimmy and all,
> >
> >I think you'll find that gustnadoes are still tornadoes - just tornadoes
not
> >actually associated with storm-scale rotation.  In the case mentioned in
> >your email from Novemnber 22 1999, there was in fact a funnel cloud
> >associated with the dust whirl (see link below) but whether this was
> >generated from storm scale rotation (of which there was some evidence) or
> >some other force is debateable.  Given the definition in the NOAA Storm
> >Spotters Glossary, a gustnado is still a tornado and as such the event
> >mentioned above was in fact a tornado.
> >
>
>http://www.australiasevereweather.com/photography/photos/1999/1122mp03.jpg
> >
> >*Extract from A COMPREHENSIVE GLOSSARY OF WEATHER TERMS FOR STORM
SPOTTERS
> >by Michael Branick - NOAA/WFO Norman*
> >"Gustnado (or Gustinado) - [Slang], gust front tornado. A small tornado,
> >usually weak and short-lived, that occurs along the gust front of a
> >thunderstorm. Often it is visible only as a debris cloud or dust whirl
near
> >the ground. Gustnadoes are not associated with storm-scale rotation (i.e.
> >mesocyclones); they are more likely to be associated visually with a
shelf
> >cloud than with a wall cloud."
> >
> >Link to NOAA Storm Spotters Glossary:
> >
> >http://www.srh.noaa.gov/oun/severewx/branick2.html
> >
> >"What is a tornado?" by Charles A. Doswell III looks into the gustnado in
> >quite a bit of detail.  Doswell says, "The visual appearances of true
> >gustnadoes (as opposed to tornadoes along a gust front, which are
manifestly
> >different phenomena) indicate they are shallow (perhaps 10-100 m deep)
with
> >no apparent connection to any process happening at cloud base or
> >above....There seems to be a disturbing trend to refer to all tornadoes
> >occurring on a gust front as "gustnadoes" whereas I have tried,
apparently
> >without success, to confine the term to the shallow vortices on gust
fronts
> >that seem not to extend as far as cloud base."
> >
> >Based on this definition, you then have to make a clear distinction
between
> >a tornado and a gustnado.  And from this, you would then have to class
the
> >event of 22nd November 1999 as a tornado given the presence of the funnel
> >cloud at cloud base level.
> >
> >
> >As for the Euroa tornado....was it a tornado? - that is the question!
> >
> >On the positive side....
> >
> >Here are some more extracts from "What is a tornado?" by Charles A.
Doswell
> >III.
> >
> >"The public at large has many misconceptions about tornadoes, a notable
one
> >being that unless the condensation cloud associated with that rotating
> >column of air is touching the surface, it is not a tornado. This is
> >manifestly untrue, as many storm chasers realize fully. Since it is the
wind
> >associated with the rotating air column that does the damage, it is the
> >moving air (wind) and not the cloud that constitutes the tornado....It is
> >quite possible for the circulation to be more or less completely
invisible
> >for at least some portion of the life cycle of the event"
> >
> >and furthermore....
> >
> >"When the visible funnel does not reach the surface, silly reports of a
> >"funnel cloud accompanied by wind damage" can occur, or such absurdities
are
> >reported as "The funnel only reached treetop level" or whatever. We
probably
> >will find it difficult ever to convince the public as a whole that a
tornado
> >is wind and not the funnel cloud. Hopefully, no self-respecting
> >meteorologist would do anything to perpetuate such misconceptions. Also,
> >storm chasers who believe this could get into a lot of trouble, quickly!
By
> >the way, "tornado on the ground" is redundant, since to be a tornado, the
> >damaging winds have to be present at the surface at that time."
> >
> >Now for the negative side....
> >
> >"Among chasers, it is a common assumption that if a funnel cloud extends
> >halfway or more to the ground from cloud base, there almost certainly is
a
> >tornadic circulation at the surface. This may or may not be true in any
> >specific instance ... it probably is more right than wrong. For official
> >purposes, however, such a "storm chaser's rule" is not a legitimate
> >assumption; by definition, one must confirm the existence of a damaging
> >circulation at the surface before the event can legitimately be called a
> >tornado. If such a confirmation cannot be made, the event must be
considered
> >to be a funnel cloud or a "possible" tornado."
> >
> >...and now some more for the positive side....
> >
> >"Recent research, some connected with the VORTEX program, has made it
clear
> >that vortical flows are often present at the surface, even without any
> >visible funnel cloud. If a condensation funnel is present that does not
> >"touch" the surface, some sort of "circulation" [10] is virtually certain
to
> >be present, but it may not be sufficient to raise debris. In the absence
of
> >debris, it is hard to know if the situation has become tornadic or not."
> >
> >So....was it a tornado?  From the evidence above, the pictures and the
> >reports I've read and heard from Jane I would say that it is a tornado.
> >
> >If anyone wishes to read the full essay "What is a tornado?" by Charles
A.
> >Doswell III. you can find it here:
> >
> >http://www.nssl.noaa.gov/doswell/public_html//a_tornado/atornado.html
> >
> >It is a great read and it asks and answers many of the questions about
the
> >current definition/s of a tornado.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Andrew McDonald
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> >To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> >Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:26 PM
> >Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> >
> >
> > > Hi Anthony,
> > >
> > > "that the chances are so
> > > high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that it's
> > > almost definately a tornado."
> > >
> > > Ahhhh - I agree with that concept and that is my opinion - it is most
> > > likely a tornado.
> > >
> > > Who was the person in the BoM who noted it as a funnel? Perhaps they
need
> > > to be told of the damage track. Was a damage survey done? And if so by
> >whom?
> > >
> > >
> > > Now check out this US report and the photograph associated with it
> > >
> > > http://www.onthefront.ws/mar2902.htm    take particular note what they
> >call it
> > >
> > > http://www.onthefront.ws/images/32902v5.jpg
> > >
> > >
> > > Anyway, that's science, full of debate.
> > >
> > > By the way, I have been also looking into the dust whirls of November
22
> > > 1999 in SE Qld. The consensus seems to point to gustnado after all
despite
> > > the dust whirls.
> > >
> > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com/tornado.htm  go down to the dust
> > > whirls. Not enough evidence.
> > >
> > > You will see during the ASWA Conference why!!!
> > >
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > >
> > > At 06:42 PM 6/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > > >I think you have to say that since you can visibly see the funnel
cloud
> > > >to about 90% of the ground (trees below that), that the chances are
so
> > > >high that the remainder of the vortex is reaching the ground that
it's
> > > >almost definately a tornado.
> > > >
> > > >Besides, Jane mentioned there was a damage track reported too I
think???
> > > >
> > > >AC
> > > >
> > > >Jimmy Deguara wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Paul,
> > > > >
> > > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
really
> > > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
showing
> >the
> > > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess
the
> >damage
> > > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether
it
> >was a
> > > > > tornado or not.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > > >
> > > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > > > >Hey All,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown
in
> > > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention
of
> >MSC or
> > > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado, and
> >quoted
> > > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
images
> >from
> > > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > > > >though.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Paul Yole
> > > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
body of
> >your
> > > > > >  message.
> > > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > > > >
> > > > > from
> > > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > > > NSW Australia
> > > > >
> > > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > > > >
> > > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > > > >
> > > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > > > >
> > > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > > >
> > > > >
> >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> >to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> >your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >--
> > > >Anthony Cornelius
> > > >Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
> > > >Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
> > > >(07) 3390 4812
> > > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> >to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> >your
> > > >  message.
> > >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > > from
> > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > NSW Australia
> > >
> > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Jimmy Deguara
> Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
>
> from
> Schofields, Sydney
> NSW Australia
>
> e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
>
> Web Page with Michael Bath
>
> Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> http://www.australiasevereweather.com
>
> President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Richard Modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: convection height
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 23:56:48 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>just got onto the soundings 
in the aviation site, i gotta try and start getting some sort of handle on these 
thinge for the upcoming storm season,&nbsp;what does the chart referring to 
convection height refer to, is it cloudbase or maybe cloud top?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>regards </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>richard 
modistach</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:35:44 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2002 14:43:47.0655 (UTC) FILETIME=[00CDC570:01C23EEA]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Jimmy and all,

The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well -
they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....

Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not issuing
a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an extremely
reliable, registered storm spotter.

In the definition supplied by the BoM.....

"SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the Bureau of
Meteorology as one which produces:

hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
flash floods; or
tornadoes, or any combination of these."

This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, in my
opinion, warranting a warning.

One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) at
the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in the
space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no warning
was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado were
probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate the
roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s should
be given adequate warning.

Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
action is seemingly taken?
2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado tears
it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have had
a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming anyone
of the happenings of April 14 1999?).

Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
reports and weather warnings.

I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from that
day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet not
much is showing up on radar.

I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at the
BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM find
themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should the
unthinkable happen.

Regards,

Andrew McDonald



----- Original Message -----
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:27 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado


> Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)
>
> Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9
minutes
> previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the
video
> is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it
also
> shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the tornado
> making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during the
> ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference
itself.
>
> Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but
nobody
> answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben
given?
>
> Great to see science at work here.
>
> Have a nice day.
>
> Jimmy Deguara
>
> At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >Hi Clyve and Jane,
> >
> >Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the
> >video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested,
> >the video is clearer.
> >
> >Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
> >
> >Jimmy Deguara
> >
> >At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> >>Hi all.
> >>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this tornado....and
> >>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no
doubt
> >>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event,
considering
> >>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not very
> >>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> >>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to
weaken
> >>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the ground
in
> >>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> >>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> >>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!!
regards
> >>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> >>----- Original Message -----
> >>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> >>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> >>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> >>
> >>
> >> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> >> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> >> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> >> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > Jimmy,
> >> > >
> >> > > it was a tornado.
> >> > >
> >> > > Jane
> >> > > --------------------------------
> >> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> >> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> >> > >
> >> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> >> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> >> > >
> >> > > ASWA - Victoria
> >> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >> > > --------------------------------
> >> > >
> >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> >> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> >> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> >> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hi Paul,
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
really
> >> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
showing
> >>the
> >> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess
the
> >> > > damage
> >> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether
it
> >>was
> >> > a
> >> > > > tornado or not.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Good stuff.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> >> > > >
> >> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >> > > > >Hey All,
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> >> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown
in
> >> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention
of
> >>MSC
> >> > or
> >> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> >> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado,
and
> >> > quoted
> >> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> >> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
images
> >>from
> >> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> >> > > > >though.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> >> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >Paul Yole
> >> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> >> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> >> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> >> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
body of
> >> > > your
> >> > > > >  message.
> >> > > >
> >>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >> > > >
> >> > > > -----------------------------------------
> >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> >> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >> > > >
> >> > > > from
> >> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> >> > > > NSW Australia
> >> > > >
> >> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> >> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >> > > >
> >> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> >> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> >> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> >> > your
> >> > > >  message.
> >> > >
>
   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >> > >
> >> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> >>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> >>your
> >> > >  message.
> >> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >> >  message.
> >>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >>
> >>
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >>  message.
>
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >-----------------------------------------
> >Jimmy Deguara
> >Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> >from
> >Schofields, Sydney
> >NSW Australia
> >
> >e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> >Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> >Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> >http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> >President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> >message.
> >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Jimmy Deguara
> Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
>
> from
> Schofields, Sydney
> NSW Australia
>
> e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
>
> Web Page with Michael Bath
>
> Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> http://www.australiasevereweather.com
>
> President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 02:58:46 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Well folks, before we all climb on the bandwagon too much, lets keep in mind
that the BoM have access to tools such as 3d radar, undelayed lightning
tracker etc., and no doubt would be making their own estimation of storm
severity.  I'm sure that if the thing looked like a tornadic supercell with
strong hail signatures, they would issue a warning.

When it comes to coldies they are a bit tricky.  They are short lived, weak,
and can be associated with relatively innocuous Cb's, e.g., would you expect
the BoM to issue a severe storm warning for a waterspout associated with a
modest Cu close to the coast, when there is no associated lightning activity
or radar signature worth noting?  Yet such waterspouts have been known to
cause damage if they come ashore.

I accept the argument that there is no point having a spotter network if it
is ignored, and perhaps a STW was indeed justified for this event (I havn't
seen the analysis).  But I also think we have to assume that the BoM have
some credibility.

Regards,
John.

>snip
-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Simon Angell
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:07 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado


Yes Andrew, i waited eagerly for an STW to be issued, but nothing. Perhaps
the Warnings center had a golf day down there in Lovley Melbourne (j/k) they
sure as hell wern't on the ball!

Now, I am an Advocate of the BoM and What they do, and hopefully one day i
will be working for them, but its times like these, that you can see why the
public at large have such bad attitude toward them. Im POSTIVE that if jane
hade reported a funnel over Melbourne's suburbs an STW would be issued
within minutes. I wonder what the outcry would be if it had large hail in
it, destroying Crops and killing livestock???

Cheers
Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado


> Jimmy and all,
>
> The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well -
> they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
>
> Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not
issuing
> a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an extremely
> reliable, registered storm spotter.
>
> In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
>
> "SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the Bureau
of
> Meteorology as one which produces:
>
> hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
> wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
> flash floods; or
> tornadoes, or any combination of these."
>
> This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, in
my
> opinion, warranting a warning.
>
> One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) at
> the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in
the
> space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no warning
> was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado were
> probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate the
> roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s should
> be given adequate warning.
>
> Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
> 1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
> action is seemingly taken?
> 2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado tears
> it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have
had
> a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming
anyone
> of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
>
> Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
> reports and weather warnings.
>
> I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from
that
> day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet not
> much is showing up on radar.
>
> I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at
the
> BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM
find
> themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should
the
> unthinkable happen.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew McDonald
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:27 AM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>
>
> > Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)
> >
> > Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9
> minutes
> > previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the
> video
> > is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it
> also
> > shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the
tornado
> > making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during the
> > ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference
> itself.
> >
> > Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but
> nobody
> > answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben
> given?
> >
> > Great to see science at work here.
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Hi Clyve and Jane,
> > >
> > >Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the
> > >video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested,
> > >the video is clearer.
> > >
> > >Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
> > >
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > >At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >>Hi all.
> > >>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this
tornado....and
> > >>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no
> doubt
> > >>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event,
> considering
> > >>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not
very
> > >>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> > >>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to
> weaken
> > >>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the
ground
> in
> > >>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> > >>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> > >>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!!
> regards
> > >>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> > >>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > >> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > >> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > >> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > Jimmy,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > it was a tornado.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Jane
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > >> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > >> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > >> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > >> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > >> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi Paul,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
> really
> > >> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
> showing
> > >>the
> > >> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and
assess
> the
> > >> > > damage
> > >> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to
whether
> it
> > >>was
> > >> > a
> > >> > > > tornado or not.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Good stuff.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> > > > >Hey All,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian
State
> > >> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website
shown
> in
> > >> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual
mention
> of
> > >>MSC
> > >> > or
> > >> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado,
> and
> > >> > quoted
> > >> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
> images
> > >>from
> > >> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >> > > > >though.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Paul Yole
> > >> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
> body of
> > >> > > your
> > >> > > > >  message.
> > >> > > >
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > >> > > > NSW Australia
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> >
>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
body
> of
> > >> > your
> > >> > > >  message.
> > >> > >
> >
>    -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
> of
> > >>your
> > >> > >  message.
> > >> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> your
> > >> >  message.
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >>
> > >>
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >>  message.
> >
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > >from
> > >Schofields, Sydney
> > >NSW Australia
> > >
> > >e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > >Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > >Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > >President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> > >message.
> > >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hot vs Cold
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:41:21 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Everyone knows that hot is faster than cold, as 
anyone can catch a cold..........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry, had to put that in. :-)</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>
  <DIV>So what is the opposite to cold... heat or hot?</DIV>
  <DIV>I would say hot. I've heard of heating things but never colding things. 
  </DIV>
  <DIV>As an object looses heat energy we refer to it as 
  cooling.</DIV></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 06:56:00 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


All I can say is that I SMS'ed Jane probably an hour before to say that the
sky was as black as the inside of a cow and moving down that way. I'll stand
corrected on my wording there Jane :-) But whatever happened down south
wouldn't surprise me in the least as it was very dark. I was at the local
servo and turned all the lights on. I remember the temp dropped very rapidly
with the darkness, dropping from about 11 to 5 in about 30 minutes from
memory. Only about 5mm fell here on that day though.
Slightly off topic but the conditions that day at Glenrowan were atrocious
for Footy with the final scores being 2.4 to 2.6 with apparently most kicks
not exceeding about 25 metres because of the rain etc etc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Angell" <seangell at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado


> Yes Andrew, i waited eagerly for an STW to be issued, but nothing. Perhaps
> the Warnings center had a golf day down there in Lovley Melbourne (j/k)
they
> sure as hell wern't on the ball!
>
> Now, I am an Advocate of the BoM and What they do, and hopefully one day i
> will be working for them, but its times like these, that you can see why
the
> public at large have such bad attitude toward them. Im POSTIVE that if
jane
> hade reported a funnel over Melbourne's suburbs an STW would be issued
> within minutes. I wonder what the outcry would be if it had large hail in
> it, destroying Crops and killing livestock???
>
> Cheers
> Simon



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X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:02:16 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 12:02 AM 9/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Perhaps the dust whirl was a vorticy on the gust front but
>it just seemed quite conincidental that there was a funnel shaped cloud tag
>(photographed by Matt P and myself) which seemingly pointed in the general
>direction of the dust whirls.  Granted the funnel couldn't visibly be seen
>to be rotating but the dust whirl sure was.


Hi Andrew,

Check the video clip on the same "funnel" of the SE Qld event. It comes 
around from the other side and seems to dive down towards the dust whirls 
briefly and then disappear. It could be a funnel but maybe it isn't... From 
the distance I was from the event, and even from the behaviours of funnels 
and wall clouds in the US, I would still not commit myself to calling it a 
tornado with 100% certainty. So I still say possible tornado/gustnado.

The dust whirls also rise sharply it seems but being in 3D, the dust plume 
may not be actually rising but moving forward ie not rising as sharply as 
I/we first thought. We don't have the benefit of doubt of someone else on 
the storm to confirm things. Later if you recall, we got chased by powerful 
outflow and raised dust. I also have a problem with inflow interaction - 
there was a lack of inflow that day as I suggested mainly expected from the 
NW side making it anti-cyclonic.

The only type of behaviour I can say that points it towards a tornadic type 
behaviours is that wall clouds can produce side funnels which can send down 
funnels initially. The video is unclear from the distance we were. We could 
not note any rotation.

Having said all this, I also wonder what the event was like earlier!!!! 
Check this thin band of cloud noticed by a US chaser....

http://www.australiasevereweather.com/photography/photos/1999/1122jd04.jpg

Inflow band into the unclear but rounded updraught?? I would say it was 
relative inflow.

Jimmy Deguara

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


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Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 08:15:53 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 12:35 AM 9/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Jimmy and all,
>
>The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well -
>they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
>
>Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not issuing
>a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an extremely
>reliable, registered storm spotter.

You have made a good point here. Jane is definitely reliable with an 
excellent relation with the BoM in Victoria. What puzzles me: Good relation 
in the past has led the BoM and/or ASWA members to do damage assessments of 
tornadic events.

reliabile spotter -> video stills and photos ->  no damage assessment?? I 
would like to think one was done. Surely Jane has been in contact with the 
Bureau since then so surely one must have been done - if not very 
disapppointing.

Or have we gone to the stage like April 14 1999 when an SES volunteer was 
trusted over someone else. Did they observe something from close up - 
mistake or no mistake? Did they also have some other evidence 
photographs/video? But you guys would know more of that.


>In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
>
>"SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the Bureau of
>Meteorology as one which produces:
>
>hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
>wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
>flash floods; or
>tornadoes, or any combination of these."
>
>This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, in my
>opinion, warranting a warning.
>
>One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) at
>the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in the
>space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no warning
>was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado were
>probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate the
>roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s should
>be given adequate warning.

I agree in hind site that seeing something like what is on Jane's site 
would definitely have a warning issued. But they didn't have it in front of 
them so it comes from a collection of spotter reports and how reliable a 
report they think it is. In the end they USE the report and make their own 
judgement from there and this is where I agree with John Woodbridge's 
comments on radar analysis. Still a warning was warranted based on the 
evidence. But as suggested in previous similar debates, the Bureau does not 
want to scare the public..... Public liability can work both ways here....


>Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
>1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
>action is seemingly taken?
>2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado tears
>it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have had
>a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming anyone
>of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
>
>Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
>reports and weather warnings.
>
>I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from that
>day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet not
>much is showing up on radar.
>
>I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at the
>BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM find
>themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should the
>unthinkable happen.

Yes definitely.

Jimmy Deguara


>Regards,
>
>Andrew McDonald
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:27 AM
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>
>
> > Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)
> >
> > Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9
>minutes
> > previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the
>video
> > is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it
>also
> > shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the tornado
> > making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during the
> > ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference
>itself.
> >
> > Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but
>nobody
> > answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben
>given?
> >
> > Great to see science at work here.
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Hi Clyve and Jane,
> > >
> > >Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the
> > >video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested,
> > >the video is clearer.
> > >
> > >Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
> > >
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > >At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >>Hi all.
> > >>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this tornado....and
> > >>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no
>doubt
> > >>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event,
>considering
> > >>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not very
> > >>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> > >>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to
>weaken
> > >>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the ground
>in
> > >>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> > >>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> > >>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!!
>regards
> > >>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> > >>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > >> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > >> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > >> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > Jimmy,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > it was a tornado.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Jane
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > >> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > >> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > >> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > >> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > >> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi Paul,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
>really
> > >> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
>showing
> > >>the
> > >> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and assess
>the
> > >> > > damage
> > >> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to whether
>it
> > >>was
> > >> > a
> > >> > > > tornado or not.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Good stuff.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> > > > >Hey All,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian State
> > >> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website shown
>in
> > >> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual mention
>of
> > >>MSC
> > >> > or
> > >> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado,
>and
> > >> > quoted
> > >> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
>images
> > >>from
> > >> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >> > > > >though.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Paul Yole
> > >> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
>body of
> > >> > > your
> > >> > > > >  message.
> > >> > > >
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > >> > > > NSW Australia
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
>of
> > >> > your
> > >> > > >  message.
> > >> > >
> >
>    -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
>of
> > >>your
> > >> > >  message.
> > >> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > >> >  message.
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >>
> > >>
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > >>  message.
> >
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > >from
> > >Schofields, Sydney
> > >NSW Australia
> > >
> > >e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > >Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > >Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > >President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> > >message.
> > >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:10:21 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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Morning all,

An animation of the PPI from 1510 to 1710 is now available.  Euroa is in the
SW quadrant outside the 50km circle and is identified as EUR.

http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/Weather/ppiloop.gif

Many thanks to Kevin Parkyn for the images & Robert Goler for the animation.

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:15:58 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Macca and all,

I was very surprised that not even an advice was issued!  After I got
off the phone to Jane, I eagerly refreshed the warnings page many times
- but alas, nothing.  I understand what John is saying though - that the
BoM have all of the tools there and which can *assist* them in their
duties of determining severity of storms.  But when you get down to it,
what is more reliable?  A computer program calculating an algorithm that
suggests a storm is severe/not severe, or a spotter on the ground
reporting a tornado?  The spotter network (from my understanding) is for
confirmation of radar signatures and warnings, and also for when radar
doesn't show a severe storm as well as it should.  I can think of a
multitude of examples when storms have been severe, and have been given
a surprised tone of "It doesn't look overly strong on radar."  March 9,
2001 rings a bell here.  If you look at the storms on radar (even 3D!),
they actually look relatively weak - not overly intense in precipitation
either.  But this was an excellent case where radar was underestimating
the amount of precipitation.  This was clearly evident by most of the
storms only suggesting 40-100mm/hr rain rates (something not uncommon to
Brisbane).  The result?  200mm in 50 minutes was reported at Logan
City...and some of the worst flash floods in Brisbane's history.  This
was an example where a spotter report was taken fairly lightly earlier
in the afternoon (ie, James Chambers reported in excess of 100mm in
under an hour), but a warning wasn't put out until much later than
that.  This copped the BoM the title in the Courier Mail "The Bureau's
90 minutes of silence."

What's my point here?  Well - I can also understand from a Bureau
perspective how frustrating it must be when warnings are issued, but not
broadcasted by the media.  My advice?  Issue them anyway!!!  It is
better for you to do your job properly, and let some one else cop the
flack rather than not doing your job properly, and copping the flack
yourself.

With a tornado, I believe that at the very least an advice should have
been issued by the storm.  I can't help but think because the storm did
not look overly spectacular on radar that that was part of the reason a
warning was not issued.  Particularly when Jane was on the phone to the
Bureau as the tornado touched down!  Does this mean the Bureau trusts
radar over spotters?  (And not only that, a well known spotter - from my
understanding Jane knows a few of the forecasters in the Melbourne RFC. 
Not to mention the entire Victorian Severe Weather Section!).  I should
really hope not, as that is a bit of a motivation blow to those who are
spotters.  Even for myself, who is a great advocate of the spotter
network!  And from a storm spotter view only, I feel frustrated that a
fellow spotter's report was essentially ignored in this respect.  I'll
always report though - that's just me.  My question is, what about other
spotters out there who have just started and then find out that a report
of theirs was deemed inaccurate or incorrect?

Some food for thought...

AC

Andrew wrote:
> 
> Jimmy and all,
> 
> The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well -
> they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
> 
> Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not issuing
> a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an extremely
> reliable, registered storm spotter.
> 
> In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
> 
> "SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the Bureau of
> Meteorology as one which produces:
> 
> hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
> wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
> flash floods; or
> tornadoes, or any combination of these."
> 
> This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, in my
> opinion, warranting a warning.
> 
> One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) at
> the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in the
> space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no warning
> was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado were
> probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate the
> roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s should
> be given adequate warning.
> 
> Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
> 1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
> action is seemingly taken?
> 2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado tears
> it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have had
> a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming anyone
> of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
> 
> Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
> reports and weather warnings.
> 
> I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from that
> day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet not
> much is showing up on radar.
> 
> I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at the
> BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM find
> themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should the
> unthinkable happen.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andrew McDonald


-- 
Anthony Cornelius
Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the 
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Glen O'Riley" <goriley at tsn.cc>
To: "Aussie Weather List" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: IRC
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:19:52 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0)
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Is anyone else having troubles connecting to austnet au server here. I have
tried a few and can't connect today for some reason.

___________________________________

Glen O'Riley
goriley at tsn.cc
www.mypage.tsn.cc/oriley

* Computer Repairs
* Computer Sales
* Computer Upgrades
* Computer Networking
* Computer Training
* Web Page Construction
* TV Antenna Installation
* Livestock Work
--------
WebMaster For:
www.ansansw.com.au
--------
Storm Chaser
Firefighter
SES Volunteer
ACREM CB Radio Monitor
Rail Fan
_________________________________



Attachment Converted: "c:\program files\eudora\attach\Glen Patrick O'Riley2.vcf"
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:33:43 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: IRC
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


It's been difficult to get into the #Weather channel this morning, I
assume Austnet is having problems and ISPs are finding it difficult to
resolve their servers.

Try typing "/server 130.194.9.1" in your server window, that should
hopefully get you through.

AC

Glen O'Riley wrote:
> 
> Is anyone else having troubles connecting to austnet au server here. I have
> tried a few and can't connect today for some reason.
> 
> ___________________________________
> 
> Glen O'Riley
> goriley at tsn.cc
> www.mypage.tsn.cc/oriley
> 
> * Computer Repairs
> * Computer Sales
> * Computer Upgrades
> * Computer Networking
> * Computer Training
> * Web Page Construction
> * TV Antenna Installation
> * Livestock Work
> --------
> WebMaster For:
> www.ansansw.com.au
> --------
> Storm Chaser
> Firefighter
> SES Volunteer
> ACREM CB Radio Monitor
> Rail Fan
> _________________________________

-- 
Anthony Cornelius
Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the 
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [144.132.18.241]
From: "Liam Domanski" <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 11:15:45 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2002 01:15:45.0995 (UTC) FILETIME=[49E549B0:01C23F42]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
I agree Andrew.

I can understand the BoM getting frustrated about warnings and such too.  I 
know of only a few radio stations (none of them commercial ones) that 
broadcast warnings.

This must be disheartening for those at the bureau, but in the case of a 
tornado being spotted and reported (By JANE!!), I think that was pretty poor 
not to do anything about it.


Perhaps to help, we need to apply some pressure on the media to support the 
issue of broadcasting warnings and advices?


I did write an email to MMM after the tornado/STA warning (Geelong one) was 
never broadcast or even mentioned.

They emailed me back some crap story how the manager was sure it had been 
mentioned, but he'd listen to the recording of the program at the time, and 
find out why.

I'm sure he didn't do anything of the sort.


Liam




>From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:35:44 +1000
>
>Jimmy and all,
>
>The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well -
>they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
>
>Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not issuing
>a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an extremely
>reliable, registered storm spotter.
>
>In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
>
>"SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the Bureau 
>of
>Meteorology as one which produces:
>
>hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
>wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
>flash floods; or
>tornadoes, or any combination of these."
>
>This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, in 
>my
>opinion, warranting a warning.
>
>One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) at
>the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in 
>the
>space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no warning
>was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado were
>probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate the
>roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s should
>be given adequate warning.
>
>Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
>1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
>action is seemingly taken?
>2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado tears
>it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have 
>had
>a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming anyone
>of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
>
>Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
>reports and weather warnings.
>
>I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from 
>that
>day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet not
>much is showing up on radar.
>
>I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at 
>the
>BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM find
>themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should 
>the
>unthinkable happen.
>
>Regards,
>
>Andrew McDonald
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:27 AM
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>
>
> > Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)
> >
> > Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9
>minutes
> > previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the
>video
> > is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it
>also
> > shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the 
>tornado
> > making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during the
> > ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference
>itself.
> >
> > Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but
>nobody
> > answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben
>given?
> >
> > Great to see science at work here.
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Hi Clyve and Jane,
> > >
> > >Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the
> > >video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested,
> > >the video is clearer.
> > >
> > >Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
> > >
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > >At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >>Hi all.
> > >>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this 
>tornado....and
> > >>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no
>doubt
> > >>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event,
>considering
> > >>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not 
>very
> > >>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> > >>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to
>weaken
> > >>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the 
>ground
>in
> > >>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> > >>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> > >>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!!
>regards
> > >>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> > >>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > >> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > >> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > >> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > Jimmy,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > it was a tornado.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Jane
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > >> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > >> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > >> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > >> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > >> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi Paul,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
>really
> > >> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
>showing
> > >>the
> > >> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and 
>assess
>the
> > >> > > damage
> > >> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to 
>whether
>it
> > >>was
> > >> > a
> > >> > > > tornado or not.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Good stuff.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> > > > >Hey All,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian 
>State
> > >> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website 
>shown
>in
> > >> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual 
>mention
>of
> > >>MSC
> > >> > or
> > >> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado,
>and
> > >> > quoted
> > >> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
>images
> > >>from
> > >> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >> > > > >though.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Paul Yole
> > >> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
>body of
> > >> > > your
> > >> > > > >  message.
> > >> > > >
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > >> > > > NSW Australia
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> > 
> >>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the 
>body
>of
> > >> > your
> > >> > > >  message.
> > >> > >
> >
>    -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
>of
> > >>your
> > >> > >  message.
> > >> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body 
>of
>your
> > >> >  message.
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >>
> > >>
>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > >>  message.
> >
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > >from
> > >Schofields, Sydney
> > >NSW Australia
> > >
> > >e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > >Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > >Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > >President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
>your
> > >message.
> > >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
>your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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</x-flowed>
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 12:01:45 +1000 (EST)
From: Robert Goler <Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au>
Subject: aus-wx: FNMOC NWP weather maps
X-X-Sender: robert at tornado.maths.monash.edu.au
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com



Hey all

Does anyone know what's happened to the FNMOC NWP weather maps site:

http://152.80.49.210/PUBLIC/WXMAP/GLOBAL/wx.htm

Nothing has been updated since August 1!


Cheers

--

Robert A. Goler        

School of Mathematical Sciences
PO Box 28M
Monash University
Clayton, Vic 3800
Australia

ph. +61 3 9905 4424
email: Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au
http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/

--


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "NANDINA" <nandina at alphalink.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hot vs Cold
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:09:36 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Heat v Cool
Hot adj cold
Yes?

Cheers,

Nandina
----- Original Message -----
From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hot vs Cold


Everyone knows that hot is faster than cold, as anyone can catch a
cold..........
Sorry, had to put that in. :-)

  So what is the opposite to cold... heat or hot?
  I would say hot. I've heard of heating things but never colding things.
  As an object looses heat energy we refer to it as cooling.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 8/2/02


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Ben Quinn" <benquinn at optushome.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: FNMOC NWP weather maps
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 17:27:38 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Robert, all

The site is still updating the charts they're just accessed from a different
URL now - this page explains the change

http://152.80.49.210/PUBLIC/WXMAP/GLOBAL/

Clicking on the public access link towards the bottom of the page will take
you to the new URL

Cheers


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Goler" <Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: aus-wx: FNMOC NWP weather maps


>
> Hey all
>
> Does anyone know what's happened to the FNMOC NWP weather maps site:
>
> http://152.80.49.210/PUBLIC/WXMAP/GLOBAL/wx.htm
>
> Nothing has been updated since August 1!
>
>
> Cheers
>
> --
>
> Robert A. Goler
>
> School of Mathematical Sciences
> PO Box 28M
> Monash University
> Clayton, Vic 3800
> Australia
>
> ph. +61 3 9905 4424
> email: Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au
> http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/
>
> --
>
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Simon Angell" <seangell at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 01:06:47 -0700
Organization: www.canberra-wx.com
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2002 15:06:56.0365 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C8A19D0:01C23EED]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Yes Andrew, i waited eagerly for an STW to be issued, but nothing. Perhaps
the Warnings center had a golf day down there in Lovley Melbourne (j/k) they
sure as hell wern't on the ball!

Now, I am an Advocate of the BoM and What they do, and hopefully one day i
will be working for them, but its times like these, that you can see why the
public at large have such bad attitude toward them. Im POSTIVE that if jane
hade reported a funnel over Melbourne's suburbs an STW would be issued
within minutes. I wonder what the outcry would be if it had large hail in
it, destroying Crops and killing livestock???

Cheers
Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado


> Jimmy and all,
>
> The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well -
> they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
>
> Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not
issuing
> a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an extremely
> reliable, registered storm spotter.
>
> In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
>
> "SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the Bureau
of
> Meteorology as one which produces:
>
> hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
> wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
> flash floods; or
> tornadoes, or any combination of these."
>
> This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, in
my
> opinion, warranting a warning.
>
> One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) at
> the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in
the
> space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no warning
> was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado were
> probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate the
> roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s should
> be given adequate warning.
>
> Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
> 1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
> action is seemingly taken?
> 2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado tears
> it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have
had
> a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming
anyone
> of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
>
> Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
> reports and weather warnings.
>
> I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from
that
> day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet not
> much is showing up on radar.
>
> I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at
the
> BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM
find
> themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should
the
> unthinkable happen.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew McDonald
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:27 AM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>
>
> > Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)
> >
> > Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9
> minutes
> > previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the
> video
> > is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it
> also
> > shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the
tornado
> > making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during the
> > ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference
> itself.
> >
> > Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but
> nobody
> > answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben
> given?
> >
> > Great to see science at work here.
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Hi Clyve and Jane,
> > >
> > >Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the
> > >video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested,
> > >the video is clearer.
> > >
> > >Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
> > >
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > >At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >>Hi all.
> > >>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this
tornado....and
> > >>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no
> doubt
> > >>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event,
> considering
> > >>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not
very
> > >>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> > >>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to
> weaken
> > >>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the
ground
> in
> > >>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> > >>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> > >>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!!
> regards
> > >>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> > >>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > >> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > >> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > >> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > Jimmy,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > it was a tornado.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Jane
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > >> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > >> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > >> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > >> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > >> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi Paul,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
> really
> > >> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
> showing
> > >>the
> > >> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and
assess
> the
> > >> > > damage
> > >> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to
whether
> it
> > >>was
> > >> > a
> > >> > > > tornado or not.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Good stuff.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> > > > >Hey All,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian
State
> > >> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website
shown
> in
> > >> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual
mention
> of
> > >>MSC
> > >> > or
> > >> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado,
> and
> > >> > quoted
> > >> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
> images
> > >>from
> > >> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >> > > > >though.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Paul Yole
> > >> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
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> > >> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
> body of
> > >> > > your
> > >> > > > >  message.
> > >> > > >
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > >> > > > NSW Australia
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> >
>>+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
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body
> of
> > >> > your
> > >> > > >  message.
> > >> > >
> >
>    -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
> of
> > >>your
> > >> > >  message.
> > >> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> your
> > >> >  message.
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >>
> > >>
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >>  message.
> >
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > >from
> > >Schofields, Sydney
> > >NSW Australia
> > >
> > >e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > >Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > >Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > >President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> > >message.
> > >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [203.221.137.155]
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:27:21 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2002 09:27:22.0044 (UTC) FILETIME=[F6E92FC0:01C23F86]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi every1 ('specially Jane!)

Love the radar loop....

but guess what? The usual Victorian suspect area also seemed to have some 
grumpy ones happening at about the same time!!!

Check out the Rochester, Kyabram and Nathalia regions at the same time!

Wonder if anybody was any of those cells...

Cheers,
Kevin from Wycheproof.


>From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:10:21 +1000
>
>Morning all,
>
>An animation of the PPI from 1510 to 1710 is now available.  Euroa is in 
>the
>SW quadrant outside the 50km circle and is identified as EUR.
>
>http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/Weather/ppiloop.gif
>
>Many thanks to Kevin Parkyn for the images & Robert Goler for the 
>animation.
>
>Jane
>--------------------------------
>Jane ONeill - Melbourne
>cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
>Melbourne Storm Chasers
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
>ASWA - Victoria
>http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>--------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------





_________________________________________________________________
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</x-flowed>
X-Originating-IP: [203.221.137.155]
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 19:35:58 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2002 09:35:58.0936 (UTC) FILETIME=[2B00A580:01C23F88]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi Anthony et al...

Good post and it begs a question that I've posited before here and on IRC...

Are US tornadic or supercellular signatures necessarily appropriate for 
Australian conditions? We don't have (by anybody's definition) the 
topography that is even remotely similar to that of the US that generates 
tornadic thunderstorms. I'd be extremely surprised if you landed the entire 
US Weather Service here with Doppler radar and they issued any sort of 
warning for, say, the Fairy-Dell-Rochester tornado.

My point is...we may well have quite unique supercellular storms (or 
multi-cell ones for that matter) and maybe we need to examine not the US 
history of tornadic signatures, but in hindsight the AUSTRALIAN history of 
tornadic storm signatures.

My thoughts anyway.

Kevin from Wycheproof.

>From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:15:58 +1000
>
>Hi Macca and all,
>
>I was very surprised that not even an advice was issued!  After I got
>off the phone to Jane, I eagerly refreshed the warnings page many times
>- but alas, nothing.  I understand what John is saying though - that the
>BoM have all of the tools there and which can *assist* them in their
>duties of determining severity of storms.  But when you get down to it,
>what is more reliable?  A computer program calculating an algorithm that
>suggests a storm is severe/not severe, or a spotter on the ground
>reporting a tornado?  The spotter network (from my understanding) is for
>confirmation of radar signatures and warnings, and also for when radar
>doesn't show a severe storm as well as it should.  I can think of a
>multitude of examples when storms have been severe, and have been given
>a surprised tone of "It doesn't look overly strong on radar."  March 9,
>2001 rings a bell here.  If you look at the storms on radar (even 3D!),
>they actually look relatively weak - not overly intense in precipitation
>either.  But this was an excellent case where radar was underestimating
>the amount of precipitation.  This was clearly evident by most of the
>storms only suggesting 40-100mm/hr rain rates (something not uncommon to
>Brisbane).  The result?  200mm in 50 minutes was reported at Logan
>City...and some of the worst flash floods in Brisbane's history.  This
>was an example where a spotter report was taken fairly lightly earlier
>in the afternoon (ie, James Chambers reported in excess of 100mm in
>under an hour), but a warning wasn't put out until much later than
>that.  This copped the BoM the title in the Courier Mail "The Bureau's
>90 minutes of silence."
>
>What's my point here?  Well - I can also understand from a Bureau
>perspective how frustrating it must be when warnings are issued, but not
>broadcasted by the media.  My advice?  Issue them anyway!!!  It is
>better for you to do your job properly, and let some one else cop the
>flack rather than not doing your job properly, and copping the flack
>yourself.
>
>With a tornado, I believe that at the very least an advice should have
>been issued by the storm.  I can't help but think because the storm did
>not look overly spectacular on radar that that was part of the reason a
>warning was not issued.  Particularly when Jane was on the phone to the
>Bureau as the tornado touched down!  Does this mean the Bureau trusts
>radar over spotters?  (And not only that, a well known spotter - from my
>understanding Jane knows a few of the forecasters in the Melbourne RFC.
>Not to mention the entire Victorian Severe Weather Section!).  I should
>really hope not, as that is a bit of a motivation blow to those who are
>spotters.  Even for myself, who is a great advocate of the spotter
>network!  And from a storm spotter view only, I feel frustrated that a
>fellow spotter's report was essentially ignored in this respect.  I'll
>always report though - that's just me.  My question is, what about other
>spotters out there who have just started and then find out that a report
>of theirs was deemed inaccurate or incorrect?
>
>Some food for thought...
>
>AC
>
>Andrew wrote:
> >
> > Jimmy and all,
> >
> > The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well 
>-
> > they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
> >
> > Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not 
>issuing
> > a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an 
>extremely
> > reliable, registered storm spotter.
> >
> > In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
> >
> > "SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the 
>Bureau of
> > Meteorology as one which produces:
> >
> > hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
> > wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
> > flash floods; or
> > tornadoes, or any combination of these."
> >
> > This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, 
>in my
> > opinion, warranting a warning.
> >
> > One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) 
>at
> > the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in 
>the
> > space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no 
>warning
> > was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado 
>were
> > probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate 
>the
> > roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s 
>should
> > be given adequate warning.
> >
> > Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
> > 1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
> > action is seemingly taken?
> > 2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado 
>tears
> > it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have 
>had
> > a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming 
>anyone
> > of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
> >
> > Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
> > reports and weather warnings.
> >
> > I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from 
>that
> > day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet 
>not
> > much is showing up on radar.
> >
> > I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at 
>the
> > BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM 
>find
> > themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should 
>the
> > unthinkable happen.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Andrew McDonald
>
>
>--
>Anthony Cornelius
>Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
>Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
>(07) 3390 4812
>http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------





_________________________________________________________________
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 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: convection height
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:18:46 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Some reading to give you an indepth look into atmospheric 
soundings, definitions, use of indices &amp; the how-to's....</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>courtesy of Anthony Cornelius &amp; Benn Quinn, and courtesy 
of NEMAS in the USA.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A 
href="http://www.nemas.net/edu/skewt.html">http://www.nemas.net/edu/skewt.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2><A 
href="http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html">http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>With convection height, are you talking about the term "LFC" 
(level of free convection) ?&nbsp; which is expressed in hectopascals (or 
millibars) ....&nbsp;which is&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>"</FONT><FONT size=3>the 
LFC (level of&nbsp;free convection, above which the parcel is warmer than the 
environment, i.e., the parcel is&nbsp; positively buoyant and will rise" 
</FONT>from the glossary on <A 
href="http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html"><FONT 
size=2>http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html</FONT></A>.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Happy reading........this is just a start, and the thing to 
keep in mind is that soundings are a guide.......... over to you Anthony &amp; 
Ben!!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2>Jane</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><BR>--------------------------------<BR>Jane ONeill - Melbourne<BR><A 
href="mailto:cadence at stormchasers.au.com">cadence at stormchasers.au.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Melbourne Storm Chasers<BR><A 
href="http://www.stormchasers.au.com">http://www.stormchasers.au.com</A></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>ASWA - Victoria<BR><A 
href="http://www.severeweather.asn.au">http://www.severeweather.asn.au</A><BR>--------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=hambone at dodo.com.au href="mailto:hambone at dodo.com.au">Richard 
  Modistach</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">weather mailing list</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 09, 2002 12:26 
  AM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: convection height</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>just got onto the 
  soundings in the aviation site, i gotta try and start getting some sort of 
  handle on these thinge for the upcoming storm season,&nbsp;what does the chart 
  referring to convection height refer to, is it cloudbase or maybe cloud 
  top?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>regards </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>richard 
  modistach</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 20:26:20 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


With regards to tornado's or severe storms. Who the hell would know when 90%
of Australia is un-inhabited. Maybe tornado's touch down as regularly as
they do elsewhere in the world and no-one sees them because, basically
there's no one out there ! I often wonder what happens in the 90% of
un-chartered waters, so to speak.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 7:35 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...


> Hi Anthony et al...
>
> Good post and it begs a question that I've posited before here and on
IRC...
>
> Are US tornadic or supercellular signatures necessarily appropriate for
> Australian conditions? We don't have (by anybody's definition) the
> topography that is even remotely similar to that of the US that generates
> tornadic thunderstorms. I'd be extremely surprised if you landed the
entire
> US Weather Service here with Doppler radar and they issued any sort of
> warning for, say, the Fairy-Dell-Rochester tornado.
>
> My point is...we may well have quite unique supercellular storms (or
> multi-cell ones for that matter) and maybe we need to examine not the US
> history of tornadic signatures, but in hindsight the AUSTRALIAN history of
> tornadic storm signatures.
>
> My thoughts anyway.
>
> Kevin from Wycheproof.
>
> >From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
> >Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> >Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
> >Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:15:58 +1000
> >
> >Hi Macca and all,
> >
> >I was very surprised that not even an advice was issued!  After I got
> >off the phone to Jane, I eagerly refreshed the warnings page many times
> >- but alas, nothing.  I understand what John is saying though - that the
> >BoM have all of the tools there and which can *assist* them in their
> >duties of determining severity of storms.  But when you get down to it,
> >what is more reliable?  A computer program calculating an algorithm that
> >suggests a storm is severe/not severe, or a spotter on the ground
> >reporting a tornado?  The spotter network (from my understanding) is for
> >confirmation of radar signatures and warnings, and also for when radar
> >doesn't show a severe storm as well as it should.  I can think of a
> >multitude of examples when storms have been severe, and have been given
> >a surprised tone of "It doesn't look overly strong on radar."  March 9,
> >2001 rings a bell here.  If you look at the storms on radar (even 3D!),
> >they actually look relatively weak - not overly intense in precipitation
> >either.  But this was an excellent case where radar was underestimating
> >the amount of precipitation.  This was clearly evident by most of the
> >storms only suggesting 40-100mm/hr rain rates (something not uncommon to
> >Brisbane).  The result?  200mm in 50 minutes was reported at Logan
> >City...and some of the worst flash floods in Brisbane's history.  This
> >was an example where a spotter report was taken fairly lightly earlier
> >in the afternoon (ie, James Chambers reported in excess of 100mm in
> >under an hour), but a warning wasn't put out until much later than
> >that.  This copped the BoM the title in the Courier Mail "The Bureau's
> >90 minutes of silence."
> >
> >What's my point here?  Well - I can also understand from a Bureau
> >perspective how frustrating it must be when warnings are issued, but not
> >broadcasted by the media.  My advice?  Issue them anyway!!!  It is
> >better for you to do your job properly, and let some one else cop the
> >flack rather than not doing your job properly, and copping the flack
> >yourself.
> >
> >With a tornado, I believe that at the very least an advice should have
> >been issued by the storm.  I can't help but think because the storm did
> >not look overly spectacular on radar that that was part of the reason a
> >warning was not issued.  Particularly when Jane was on the phone to the
> >Bureau as the tornado touched down!  Does this mean the Bureau trusts
> >radar over spotters?  (And not only that, a well known spotter - from my
> >understanding Jane knows a few of the forecasters in the Melbourne RFC.
> >Not to mention the entire Victorian Severe Weather Section!).  I should
> >really hope not, as that is a bit of a motivation blow to those who are
> >spotters.  Even for myself, who is a great advocate of the spotter
> >network!  And from a storm spotter view only, I feel frustrated that a
> >fellow spotter's report was essentially ignored in this respect.  I'll
> >always report though - that's just me.  My question is, what about other
> >spotters out there who have just started and then find out that a report
> >of theirs was deemed inaccurate or incorrect?
> >
> >Some food for thought...
> >
> >AC
> >
> >Andrew wrote:
> > >
> > > Jimmy and all,
> > >
> > > The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment
(well
> >-
> > > they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
> > >
> > > Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not
> >issuing
> > > a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an
> >extremely
> > > reliable, registered storm spotter.
> > >
> > > In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
> > >
> > > "SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the
> >Bureau of
> > > Meteorology as one which produces:
> > >
> > > hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
> > > wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
> > > flash floods; or
> > > tornadoes, or any combination of these."
> > >
> > > This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and,
> >in my
> > > opinion, warranting a warning.
> > >
> > > One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some)
> >at
> > > the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado
in
> >the
> > > space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no
> >warning
> > > was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado
> >were
> > > probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate
> >the
> > > roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s
> >should
> > > be given adequate warning.
> > >
> > > Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
> > > 1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
> > > action is seemingly taken?
> > > 2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado
> >tears
> > > it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they
have
> >had
> > > a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming
> >anyone
> > > of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
> > >
> > > Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM,
spotter
> > > reports and weather warnings.
> > >
> > > I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one
from
> >that
> > > day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet
> >not
> > > much is showing up on radar.
> > >
> > > I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and
at
> >the
> > > BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM
> >find
> > > themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action
should
> >the
> > > unthinkable happen.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Andrew McDonald
> >
> >
> >--
> >Anthony Cornelius
> >Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
> >Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
> >(07) 3390 4812
> >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Simon Angell" <seangell at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 03:41:48 -0700
Organization: www.canberra-wx.com
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Aug 2002 17:42:07.0738 (UTC) FILETIME=[EA8CDDA0:01C23F02]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


John, et all.
Good point Re: BoM equipment, and that was something i thought about whilst
writing the previous email. How ever they didn't issue any warning even on
the back of reports from Victoria's premiere Storm Spotter/Chaser which i
think is the main concern.

Also I do recall a warning in the past that was based on the reports of
waterspouts, i believe it was in QLD, but i can't remember the details...it
could have even been the afternoon forecast, dunno, LOL.

Anyways, i don't want to get into a debate re: the BoM, it is overly debated
as is, and it needs changes throughout the whole company and we ALL realise
this point.

Cheers
Simon


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 9:58 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Euroa tornado


> Well folks, before we all climb on the bandwagon too much, lets keep in
mind
> that the BoM have access to tools such as 3d radar, undelayed lightning
> tracker etc., and no doubt would be making their own estimation of storm
> severity.  I'm sure that if the thing looked like a tornadic supercell
with
> strong hail signatures, they would issue a warning.
>
> When it comes to coldies they are a bit tricky.  They are short lived,
weak,
> and can be associated with relatively innocuous Cb's, e.g., would you
expect
> the BoM to issue a severe storm warning for a waterspout associated with a
> modest Cu close to the coast, when there is no associated lightning
activity
> or radar signature worth noting?  Yet such waterspouts have been known to
> cause damage if they come ashore.
>
> I accept the argument that there is no point having a spotter network if
it
> is ignored, and perhaps a STW was indeed justified for this event (I
havn't
> seen the analysis).  But I also think we have to assume that the BoM have
> some credibility.
>
> Regards,
> John.
>
> >snip
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Simon Angell
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:07 PM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>
>
> Yes Andrew, i waited eagerly for an STW to be issued, but nothing. Perhaps
> the Warnings center had a golf day down there in Lovley Melbourne (j/k)
they
> sure as hell wern't on the ball!
>
> Now, I am an Advocate of the BoM and What they do, and hopefully one day i
> will be working for them, but its times like these, that you can see why
the
> public at large have such bad attitude toward them. Im POSTIVE that if
jane
> hade reported a funnel over Melbourne's suburbs an STW would be issued
> within minutes. I wonder what the outcry would be if it had large hail in
> it, destroying Crops and killing livestock???
>
> Cheers
> Simon
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>
>
> > Jimmy and all,
> >
> > The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment
(well -
> > they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
> >
> > Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not
> issuing
> > a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an
extremely
> > reliable, registered storm spotter.
> >
> > In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
> >
> > "SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the
Bureau
> of
> > Meteorology as one which produces:
> >
> > hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
> > wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
> > flash floods; or
> > tornadoes, or any combination of these."
> >
> > This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and,
in
> my
> > opinion, warranting a warning.
> >
> > One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some)
at
> > the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in
> the
> > space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no
warning
> > was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado
were
> > probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate
the
> > roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s
should
> > be given adequate warning.
> >
> > Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
> > 1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
> > action is seemingly taken?
> > 2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado
tears
> > it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have
> had
> > a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming
> anyone
> > of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
> >
> > Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
> > reports and weather warnings.
> >
> > I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from
> that
> > day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet
not
> > much is showing up on radar.
> >
> > I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at
> the
> > BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM
> find
> > themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should
> the
> > unthinkable happen.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Andrew McDonald
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:27 AM
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
> >
> >
> > > Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)
> > >
> > > Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9
> > minutes
> > > previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the
> > video
> > > is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it
> > also
> > > shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the
> tornado
> > > making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during
the
> > > ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference
> > itself.
> > >
> > > Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but
> > nobody
> > > answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben
> > given?
> > >
> > > Great to see science at work here.
> > >
> > > Have a nice day.
> > >
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > > At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > > >Hi Clyve and Jane,
> > > >
> > > >Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the
> > > >video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is
suggested,
> > > >the video is clearer.
> > > >
> > > >Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
> > > >
> > > >Jimmy Deguara
> > > >
> > > >At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > > >>Hi all.
> > > >>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this
> tornado....and
> > > >>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no
> > doubt
> > > >>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event,
> > considering
> > > >>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not
> very
> > > >>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> > > >>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems
to
> > weaken
> > > >>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the
> ground
> > in
> > > >>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> > > >>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> > > >>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!!
> > regards
> > > >>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> > > >>----- Original Message -----
> > > >>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> > > >>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > >>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> > > >>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > > >> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > > >> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > > >> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Jimmy,
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > it was a tornado.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Jane
> > > >> > > --------------------------------
> > > >> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > > >> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > > >> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > > >> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >> > > --------------------------------
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > >> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > > >> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > > >> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > Hi Paul,
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone
to
> > really
> > > >> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
> > showing
> > > >>the
> > > >> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and
> assess
> > the
> > > >> > > damage
> > > >> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to
> whether
> > it
> > > >>was
> > > >> > a
> > > >> > > > tornado or not.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Good stuff.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >> > > > >Hey All,
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian
> State
> > > >> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website
> shown
> > in
> > > >> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual
> mention
> > of
> > > >>MSC
> > > >> > or
> > > >> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > > >> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a
tornado,
> > and
> > > >> > quoted
> > > >> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > > >> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
> > images
> > > >>from
> > > >> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > > >> > > > >though.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > > >> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >Paul Yole
> > > >> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > > >> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > > >> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> >
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> > body of
> > > >> > > your
> > > >> > > > >  message.
> > > >> > > >
> > > >>
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > >> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > from
> > > >> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > >> > > > NSW Australia
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > >> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > >> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > >
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> body
> > of
> > > >> > your
> > > >> > > >  message.
> > > >> > >
> > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > >
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> > > >>your
> > > >> > >  message.
> > > >> >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >> > >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
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> > > >>
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >>
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> > your
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> > >
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >-----------------------------------------
> > > >Jimmy Deguara
> > > >Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > > >
> > > >from
> > > >Schofields, Sydney
> > > >NSW Australia
> > > >
> > > >e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > > >
> > > >Web Page with Michael Bath
> > > >
> > > >Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > >http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > > >
> > > >President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > > >
> > >
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> > > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > > >message.
> > >
>-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------
> > > Jimmy Deguara
> > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > > from
> > > Schofields, Sydney
> > > NSW Australia
> > >
> > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >
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> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
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> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
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From: "Richard Modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: convection height
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 21:47:42 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>thanks jane,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>it's an uphill battle but 
i&nbsp;have to start somewhere.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>time to go and do a bit of 
light reading. lol</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>richard</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=cadence at stormchasers.au.com 
  href="mailto:cadence at stormchasers.au.com">Jane ONeill</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 09, 2002 7:48 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: convection 
  height</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Richard,</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Some reading to give you an indepth look into atmospheric 
  soundings, definitions, use of indices &amp; the how-to's....</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>courtesy of Anthony Cornelius &amp; Benn Quinn, and courtesy 
  of NEMAS in the USA.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><A 
  href="http://www.nemas.net/edu/skewt.html">http://www.nemas.net/edu/skewt.html</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2><A 
  href="http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html">http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html</A></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>With convection height, are you talking about the term "LFC" 
  (level of free convection) ?&nbsp; which is expressed in hectopascals (or 
  millibars) ....&nbsp;which is&nbsp; </FONT><FONT size=2>"</FONT><FONT 
  size=3>the LFC (level of&nbsp;free convection, above which the parcel is 
  warmer than the environment, i.e., the parcel is&nbsp; positively buoyant and 
  will rise" </FONT>from the glossary on <A 
  href="http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html"><FONT 
  size=2>http://www.nemas.net/edu/soundings.html</FONT></A>.</DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Happy reading........this is just a start, and the thing to 
  keep in mind is that soundings are a guide.......... over to you Anthony &amp; 
  Ben!!!</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2>Jane</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><BR>--------------------------------<BR>Jane ONeill - Melbourne<BR><A 
  href="mailto:cadence at stormchasers.au.com">cadence at stormchasers.au.com</A></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>Melbourne Storm Chasers<BR><A 
  href="http://www.stormchasers.au.com">http://www.stormchasers.au.com</A></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV>ASWA - Victoria<BR><A 
  href="http://www.severeweather.asn.au">http://www.severeweather.asn.au</A><BR>--------------------------------</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT><BR>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=hambone at dodo.com.au href="mailto:hambone at dodo.com.au">Richard 
    Modistach</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
    title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">weather mailing list</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, August 09, 2002 12:26 
    AM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: convection 
height</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>just got onto the 
    soundings in the aviation site, i gotta try and start getting some sort of 
    handle on these thinge for the upcoming storm season,&nbsp;what does the 
    chart referring to convection height refer to, is it cloudbase or maybe 
    cloud top?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>regards </FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>richard 
    modistach</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hot vs Cold
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 01:10:19 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


If, as some have stated, cold as a concept doesn't exist then its opposite
doesn't either. Therefore there is no such thing as heat. If there is no
such thing as heat, then, there being nothing to lose, an object can't lose
heat energy, meaning things stay warm forever. And that would fit the
scenario of cold not existing, as some claim..
So.. if things stay warm forever, then they always HAVE heat energy (yet
which at the same time doesn't exist) and cannot lose it. If they cannot
lose what doesn't exist, then they CAN lose what DOES exist, and we are told
that an object can lose heat. If losing heat is cooling, then cooling
exists. But we also know now that cooling does not exist. That proves that
science is an ass and the quicker we burn those textbooks the better. Oh but
I guess they won't burn...

----- Original Message -----
From: "NANDINA" <nandina at alphalink.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hot vs Cold


> Heat v Cool
> Hot adj cold
> Yes?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nandina
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 6:41 AM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Hot vs Cold
>
>
> Everyone knows that hot is faster than cold, as anyone can catch a
> cold..........
> Sorry, had to put that in. :-)
>
>   So what is the opposite to cold... heat or hot?
>   I would say hot. I've heard of heating things but never colding things.
>   As an object looses heat energy we refer to it as cooling.
>
>
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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:03:23 +1000
From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
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Subject: aus-wx: Annual ASWA Conference - Last Chance!
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Hi all,

Just a quick email to say that there are a few last tickets available
for the ASWA conference, but be quick as our final submission of numbers
for catering purposes will be sent on Monday, so we will need to know on
Sunday night at the latest!

The Annual ASWA Conference is the largest event in the calendar of ASWA,
over 25% of people attending this conference will come from interstate
just to let you know how much of an event this has been!  

The cost is $25 for members and $37 for non-members (who pay full price
because ASWA subsidises $12/member).  This includes entry to the
conference, all presentations (including guest speaker Rob Webb, head of
NSW BoM Severe Weather), dinner, afternoon tea and supper!

For details, please see: http://www.severeweather.asn.au/agm2002.htm

RSVP to aswaconference at hotmail.com
-- 
Anthony Cornelius
Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the 
Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
(07) 3390 4812
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 03:51:41 +0800
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jacob <jacob at iinet.net.au>
Subject: aus-wx: Temps at Eyre, WA
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Quite Amazing temps at Eyre over the past few days. Which is near the coast
in the SE of Western Australia. Yesterday (Friday 9th) they recorded a new
August maximum temperature of 35C! (I believe it was 34.6C in tenths. This
was only 2 days after they recorded their coldest ever August minimum
temperature of -5C, what a range.

It was quite warm through out the Eucla division yesterday, With Eucla Town
recording 31C,  Red Rocks Point 33C, Balgair 33C and Forrest 31C. Expect a
lot colder temperatures there today, there is even talk of possible snow on
the Stirling Rangers in the Southern Coastal district.

Jacob



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From: "Stargazer" <stargazer at picknowl.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 15:58:27 +0930
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The Tropic of Capricorn crosses QLD just above Rockhampton, Emerald &
Longreach. Just above Alice Springs in the NT & half way between Exmouth &
Carnarvon on the WA coast.

Mind u, I've been "across" the Tropic of Capricorn at Rockhampton but failed
to see any dotted/dashed lines on the ground...   :(    Must have had my
eyes closed or the line needs repainting!

:o)

Regs. Paul.
(Stargazer)
http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/stargazer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: DRY/WET SEASON


> At 11:38 PM 7/08/2002 +0930, you wrote:
>
> >Basically the tropical boundary is the Tropic of Capricorn crossing
> >Queensland, Northern Territory and Western Australia on the 26th
> >latitude
>
> Umm, I thought it was 23.5 degrees (or wherever the tilt of the Earth's
> axis is).  Definitely less than 26.
>
> 73 de Tony, VK3JED
> http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net
>


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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Melbourne sunset
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:55:14 +1000
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Evening all,

Just a few images from this evening's waves and sunset over Melbourne
....... http://www.stormchasers.au.com/10_08_02.htm

Enjoy!!

Jane

--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------






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Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 17:29:18 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Melbourne sunset
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Wow, there's some special shots there.  I reckon you're trying to get me 
to feel homesick, Jane!
It's actually amazing to see photos proving the sun has already set in 
Melbourne, when the sun is still high in the sky on the same day here.  I 
know the facts scientifically about time zones and all, but to see it 
illustrated so beautifully for me always comes almost as a shock.  (Our 
time zone here is always the same as Perth, WA.)

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:55:14 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Melbourne sunset

> Evening all,
> 
> Just a few images from this evening's waves and sunset over Melbourne
> ....... http://www.stormchasers.au.com/10_08_02.htm
> 
> Enjoy!!
> 
> Jane
> 
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> 
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> 
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
> -

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From: "Chas & Helen Osborn" <hosborn at tassie.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 19:35:16 +1000
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Hello Bussy

Tornadoes would leave marks on the ground by the definition. I don't believe
there are many tornadoes that are unreported
because farmers, station owners and bush pilots are very observant people
and there would be word out by now (200 odd years) if Australia had regular
occurrences.

Chas
Strahan Tasmania


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...


> With regards to tornado's or severe storms. Who the hell would know when
90%
> of Australia is un-inhabited. Maybe tornado's touch down as regularly as
> they do elsewhere in the world and no-one sees them because, basically
> there's no one out there ! I often wonder what happens in the 90% of
> un-chartered waters, so to speak.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 7:35 PM
> Subject: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
>
>
> > Hi Anthony et al...
> >
> > Good post and it begs a question that I've posited before here and on
> IRC...
> >
> > Are US tornadic or supercellular signatures necessarily appropriate for
> > Australian conditions? We don't have (by anybody's definition) the
> > topography that is even remotely similar to that of the US that
generates
> > tornadic thunderstorms. I'd be extremely surprised if you landed the
> entire
> > US Weather Service here with Doppler radar and they issued any sort of
> > warning for, say, the Fairy-Dell-Rochester tornado.
> >
> > My point is...we may well have quite unique supercellular storms (or
> > multi-cell ones for that matter) and maybe we need to examine not the US
> > history of tornadic signatures, but in hindsight the AUSTRALIAN history
of
> > tornadic storm signatures.
> >
> > My thoughts anyway.
> >
> > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> >
> > >From: Anthony Cornelius <cyclone at bigpond.net.au>
> > >Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > >To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > >Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
> > >Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 09:15:58 +1000
> > >
> > >Hi Macca and all,
> > >
> > >I was very surprised that not even an advice was issued!  After I got
> > >off the phone to Jane, I eagerly refreshed the warnings page many times
> > >- but alas, nothing.  I understand what John is saying though - that
the
> > >BoM have all of the tools there and which can *assist* them in their
> > >duties of determining severity of storms.  But when you get down to it,
> > >what is more reliable?  A computer program calculating an algorithm
that
> > >suggests a storm is severe/not severe, or a spotter on the ground
> > >reporting a tornado?  The spotter network (from my understanding) is
for
> > >confirmation of radar signatures and warnings, and also for when radar
> > >doesn't show a severe storm as well as it should.  I can think of a
> > >multitude of examples when storms have been severe, and have been given
> > >a surprised tone of "It doesn't look overly strong on radar."  March 9,
> > >2001 rings a bell here.  If you look at the storms on radar (even 3D!),
> > >they actually look relatively weak - not overly intense in
precipitation
> > >either.  But this was an excellent case where radar was underestimating
> > >the amount of precipitation.  This was clearly evident by most of the
> > >storms only suggesting 40-100mm/hr rain rates (something not uncommon
to
> > >Brisbane).  The result?  200mm in 50 minutes was reported at Logan
> > >City...and some of the worst flash floods in Brisbane's history.  This
> > >was an example where a spotter report was taken fairly lightly earlier
> > >in the afternoon (ie, James Chambers reported in excess of 100mm in
> > >under an hour), but a warning wasn't put out until much later than
> > >that.  This copped the BoM the title in the Courier Mail "The Bureau's
> > >90 minutes of silence."
> > >
> > >What's my point here?  Well - I can also understand from a Bureau
> > >perspective how frustrating it must be when warnings are issued, but
not
> > >broadcasted by the media.  My advice?  Issue them anyway!!!  It is
> > >better for you to do your job properly, and let some one else cop the
> > >flack rather than not doing your job properly, and copping the flack
> > >yourself.
> > >
> > >With a tornado, I believe that at the very least an advice should have
> > >been issued by the storm.  I can't help but think because the storm did
> > >not look overly spectacular on radar that that was part of the reason a
> > >warning was not issued.  Particularly when Jane was on the phone to the
> > >Bureau as the tornado touched down!  Does this mean the Bureau trusts
> > >radar over spotters?  (And not only that, a well known spotter - from
my
> > >understanding Jane knows a few of the forecasters in the Melbourne RFC.
> > >Not to mention the entire Victorian Severe Weather Section!).  I should
> > >really hope not, as that is a bit of a motivation blow to those who are
> > >spotters.  Even for myself, who is a great advocate of the spotter
> > >network!  And from a storm spotter view only, I feel frustrated that a
> > >fellow spotter's report was essentially ignored in this respect.  I'll
> > >always report though - that's just me.  My question is, what about
other
> > >spotters out there who have just started and then find out that a
report
> > >of theirs was deemed inaccurate or incorrect?
> > >
> > >Some food for thought...
> > >
> > >AC
> > >
> > >Andrew wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Jimmy and all,
> > > >
> > > > The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment
> (well
> > >-
> > > > they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
> > > >
> > > > Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not
> > >issuing
> > > > a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an
> > >extremely
> > > > reliable, registered storm spotter.
> > > >
> > > > In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
> > > >
> > > > "SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the
> > >Bureau of
> > > > Meteorology as one which produces:
> > > >
> > > > hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
> > > > wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
> > > > flash floods; or
> > > > tornadoes, or any combination of these."
> > > >
> > > > This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category,
and,
> > >in my
> > > > opinion, warranting a warning.
> > > >
> > > > One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only
some)
> > >at
> > > > the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1
tornado
> in
> > >the
> > > > space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no
> > >warning
> > > > was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa
tornado
> > >were
> > > > probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually
relocate
> > >the
> > > > roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s
> > >should
> > > > be given adequate warning.
> > > >
> > > > Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
> > > > 1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if
no
> > > > action is seemingly taken?
> > > > 2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado
> > >tears
> > > > it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they
> have
> > >had
> > > > a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming
> > >anyone
> > > > of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
> > > >
> > > > Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM,
> spotter
> > > > reports and weather warnings.
> > > >
> > > > I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one
> from
> > >that
> > > > day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado
yet
> > >not
> > > > much is showing up on radar.
> > > >
> > > > I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list
and
> at
> > >the
> > > > BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the
BoM
> > >find
> > > > themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action
> should
> > >the
> > > > unthinkable happen.
> > > >
> > > > Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Andrew McDonald
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >Anthony Cornelius
> > >Vice President & Queensland Coordinator of the
> > >Australian Severe Weather Association (ASWA)
> > >(07) 3390 4812
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
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> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
> >
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> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> >
>
>
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>
>

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From: "GAVIN  O'BRIEN" <mrcenterprises at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 20:24:22 +1000
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Hi all,
Totally agree.Warnings are not broadcast on TV no doubt due to the
networking out of the Capital cities - no local input!  yet they can do it
in the US Why not here? ABC Radio when" local" do broadcast (here in
Canberra) but ABC FM and JJJ FM can't -not local.With the Severe Weather
Season coming up soon we need to pressure the media maybe the pollies too.
Each year severe Wx costs $millions! Wanings cost much less.

Gavin,  Canberra SSWW
----- Original Message -----
From: "Liam Domanski" <gashband at hotmail.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado


I agree Andrew.

I can understand the BoM getting frustrated about warnings and such too.  I
know of only a few radio stations (none of them commercial ones) that
broadcast warnings.

This must be disheartening for those at the bureau, but in the case of a
tornado being spotted and reported (By JANE!!), I think that was pretty poor
not to do anything about it.


Perhaps to help, we need to apply some pressure on the media to support the
issue of broadcasting warnings and advices?


I did write an email to MMM after the tornado/STA warning (Geelong one) was
never broadcast or even mentioned.

They emailed me back some crap story how the manager was sure it had been
mentioned, but he'd listen to the recording of the program at the time, and
find out why.

I'm sure he didn't do anything of the sort.


Liam




>From: "Andrew" <macca_wx at iprimus.com.au>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 00:35:44 +1000
>
>Jimmy and all,
>
>The BoM didn't even issue an STA let alone do a damage assessment (well -
>they may've done the later but they sure didn't do the former)....
>
>Note - You may see above my obvious disappointed at the BoM for not issuing
>a warning when a tornado was sighted AND reported to them by an extremely
>reliable, registered storm spotter.
>
>In the definition supplied by the BoM.....
>
>"SEVERE THUNDERSTORM - This type of thunderstorm is defined by the Bureau
>of
>Meteorology as one which produces:
>
>hail, diameter of 2 cm or more ($2 coin size); or
>wind gusts of 90 km/h or greater; or
>flash floods; or
>tornadoes, or any combination of these."
>
>This storm produced a tornado, putting it in the severe category, and, in
>my
>opinion, warranting a warning.
>
>One must wonder what credibility some of the people (note - only some) at
>the BoM give our spotter reports.  I reported 7 funnels and 1 tornado in
>the
>space of 2 hours on a storm chase in N Vic in November 2000 yet no warning
>was issued.  Granted this tornado (and funnels) and the Euroa tornado were
>probably relatively weak but even a weak tornado can casually relocate the
>roof of your house and people living in the vicinity of the storm/s should
>be given adequate warning.
>
>Two points are raised by the BoM not issuing a warning:
>1.  Are people going to stop reporting severe weather to the BoM if no
>action is seemingly taken?
>2.  What happens to the people living in a small town when a tornado tears
>it apart and the BoM haven't provided any warnings even though they have
>had
>a report of tornadic activity earlier in the day?  (Does this reming anyone
>of the happenings of April 14 1999?).
>
>Anyway - that's my 2 cents worth regarding the issue of the BoM, spotter
>reports and weather warnings.
>
>I'd be happy to hear a forecasters perspective (the particular one from
>that
>day) as to what goes on when someone rings up to report a tornado yet not
>much is showing up on radar.
>
>I hope this email generates some discussion both here on the list and at
>the
>BoM as I feel it is an issue which should be acted upon before the BoM find
>themselves in serious trouble and potentially facing legal action should
>the
>unthinkable happen.
>
>Regards,
>
>Andrew McDonald
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 7:27 AM
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado
>
>
> > Let me rephrase the following e-mail (7:21am)
> >
> > Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute seems more realistic than the 9
>minutes
> > previously stated based on the video stills. But as is suggested, the
>video
> > is clearer to view and provides the advantages of motion. I suppose it
>also
> > shows that it touched down and you can see the debri cloud or the
>tornado
> > making contact. As I said, it would be great to see the video during the
> > ASWA Conference weekend. I hope it can be shown during the conference
>itself.
> >
> > Have there been damage assessments done by the BoM as yet? Sorry but
>nobody
> > answered my question on this. If so, what intensity would it have ben
>given?
> >
> > Great to see science at work here.
> >
> > Have a nice day.
> >
> > Jimmy Deguara
> >
> > At 12:11 AM 8/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >Hi Clyve and Jane,
> > >
> > >Excellent stuff. I suppose 1 minute is more realistic considering the
> > >video stills than the 9 minutes previously stated. But as is suggested,
> > >the video is clearer.
> > >
> > >Have there been damage assessments done? What intensity?
> > >
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >
> > >At 10:57 PM 7/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
> > >>Hi all.
> > >>I have just analysed the video of the Euroa tornado, this
>tornado....and
> > >>that's what it was.... was on the ground for at least one minute no
>doubt
> > >>about it! The video analysis shows a rather long lived event,
>considering
> > >>that it was developing under a multi cell of what appears to be not
>very
> > >>significant . At first the video shows a struggling funnel but very
> > >>interesting, about five minutes into the sequence the funnel seems to
>weaken
> > >>and then reappear as a needle/pencil type funnel that reaches the
>ground
>in
> > >>just a few seconds and remains below tree sight for about a minute,
> > >>congratulations Jane, some of the footage is the best I have seen in
> > >>Australia, come on everyone lets go out there and get some more!!!
>regards
> > >>Clyve Herbert. PS thanks for mailing the video to me Jane.
> > >>----- Original Message -----
> > >>From: Bussy <bussie at netc.net.au>
> > >>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >>Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 8:30 PM
> > >>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Agreed ! I was gunna say something but thought I better butt out.
> > >> > Jane has filmed/seen a tornado. I'm more than convinced.
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
> > >> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 7:47 AM
> > >> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > Jimmy,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > it was a tornado.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Jane
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > > Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> > >> > > cadence at stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Melbourne Storm Chasers
> > >> > > http://www.stormchasers.au.com
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ASWA - Victoria
> > >> > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > --------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > > From: "Jimmy Deguara" <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
> > >> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > >> > > Sent: Tuesday, 6 August 2002 7:18
> > >> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa tornado on Win News!!!!
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > Hi Paul,
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Funny you mention this but as I said on the forum for anyone to
>really
> > >> > > > comment, they have to view the video footage and photographs
>showing
> > >>the
> > >> > > > debri cloud Perhaps another clue would be to find out and
>assess
>the
> > >> > > damage
> > >> > > > path. This will convince everyone including the BoM as to
>whether
>it
> > >>was
> > >> > a
> > >> > > > tornado or not.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Good stuff.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > At 09:32 AM 5/8/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >> > > > >Hey All,
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Just seen on the Win News Late Edition, that our Victorian
>State
> > >> > > > >Representative for ASWA, Jane ONeill, had the MSC website
>shown
>in
> > >> > > > >reference to the Euroa tornado the other day. No actual
>mention
>of
> > >>MSC
> > >> > or
> > >> > > > >Jane, but the thing which I noticed and am a little
> > >> > > > >annoyed at is that they called it a "funnel"...NOT a tornado,
>and
> > >> > quoted
> > >> > > > >someone from the Bureau of Meteorology as saying it was a
> > >> > > > >funnel!!! Sorry, I never caught the name.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >They also had an interview with one witness, and showed the
>images
> > >>from
> > >> > > > >the Kyabram tornado damage last year. None from this event
> > >> > > > >though.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >The images and reports can be found at
> > >> > > > >http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Congratulations once again Jane.
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >Paul Yole
> > >> > > > >State Rep - ASWA Victoria
> > >> > > > >EDD: 08/08/02
> > >> > > > >http://www.lexicon.net/yolestorm/
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >"I can neither confirm nor deny I have anything to say"
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > > >
> > >> >
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> > >> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
>body of
> > >> > > your
> > >> > > > >  message.
> > >> > > >
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > -----------------------------------------
> > >> > > > Jimmy Deguara
> > >> > > > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > from
> > >> > > > Schofields, Sydney
> > >> > > > NSW Australia
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >> > > > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >> > > > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > >
> >
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> > >> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
>body
>of
> > >> > your
> > >> > > >  message.
> > >> > >
> >
>    -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
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> > >> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > >>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
>of
> > >>your
> > >> > >  message.
> > >> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
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> > >> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
>of
>your
> > >> >  message.
> > >>
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >>
> > >>
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> > >>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > >>  message.
> >
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------
> > >Jimmy Deguara
> > >Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> > >
> > >from
> > >Schofields, Sydney
> > >NSW Australia
> > >
> > >e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> > >
> > >Web Page with Michael Bath
> > >
> > >Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > >http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> > >
> > >President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > >http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> > >
> > >+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> > >message.
> > >-----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Jimmy Deguara
> > Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher
> >
> > from
> > Schofields, Sydney
> > NSW Australia
> >
> > e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au
> >
> > Web Page with Michael Bath
> >
> > Australian Severe Weather Home Page
> > http://www.australiasevereweather.com
> >
> > President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
> > http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
>your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------




_________________________________________________________________
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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Euroa tornado page update
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 21:23:44 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
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Evening all,

Have added the following information to the Euroa tornado page
http://www.stormchasers.au.com/3_08_02.htm
2 RHI scans: 1610 & 1620
MSLs: 1000 & 1600
Satellite imagery:
- vic visible - 1230 & 1430
- vic infrared - 1230, 1430, 1530, 1830

Still lots more to come (soundings, upper winds, upper analysis charts,
maps).

Thanks to Kevin Parkyn & Robert Goler for collecting the information for
me, & to Troy Spencer & Greg Hughes in Euroa for collecting local
information (which I will add soon).

Jane

--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [198.142.228.43]
From: "Karl Lijnders" <weatherman1000 at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Melbourne sunset
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 00:09:04 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Aug 2002 14:09:04.0397 (UTC) FILETIME=[7BE953D0:01C24077]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-flowed>

It was an amazing sunset Jane,

Great shots.  I was walking the dog at the time and I thought I better just 
stop and watch it change for about 5 minutes.  Was one of the best sunsets 
this year.  Read glow in the far W/NW sky lasted quite a while.

Karl

>From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: aus-wx: Melbourne sunset
>Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2002 18:55:14 +1000
>
>Evening all,
>
>Just a few images from this evening's waves and sunset over Melbourne
>....... http://www.stormchasers.au.com/10_08_02.htm
>
>Enjoy!!
>
>Jane
>
>--------------------------------
>Jane ONeill - Melbourne
>cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
>Melbourne Storm Chasers
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
>ASWA - Victoria
>http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>--------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------




_________________________________________________________________
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</x-flowed>
From: "Simon Fearby" <simon at fearby.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: On average when is the last heavy (-2c) FROST of the Winter?
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 09:11:38 +1000
Organization: Fearby.com Software
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<TITLE>Message</TITLE>

<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><SPAN class=745240823-10082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Hello</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=745240823-10082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=745240823-10082002>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=745240823-10082002>I live in 
Tamworth NSW (northern NSW thunderstorm belt) and I am wondering what is the 
average date </SPAN>when is the last heavy (-2c) FROST of the&nbsp;<SPAN 
class=745240823-10082002>winter will be</SPAN>?</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=745240823-10082002>Is there an archive 
on the BOM site (&nbsp;<A 
href="http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDN65092/IDN65092.95762.shtml">http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDN65092/IDN65092.95762.shtml</A> 
) or on the net that allows you to get more than that last 72 hrs or weather in 
your region?</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=745240823-10082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>Simon</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=745240823-10082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=745240823-10082002><FONT face=Arial 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: AUS SAT PIC
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 00:33:47 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Tonight (August 
11th), I saw something on The Weather Channel that I'd never seen before--a real 
animated Satpic of Australia! Well, it's about time. HOORAY! I'd like to see 
them spend a little more time and show a 24-hour Sat loop, or if the weather is 
really active, a 1 week Sat loop. I am very happy now.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hope everyone's week is Spectacular!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 15:50:59 +1000 (EST)
From: Robert Goler <Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: AUS SAT PIC
X-X-Sender: robert at tornado.maths.monash.edu.au
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com



> I'd like to see them spend a little more time 
> and show a 24-hour Sat loop, or if the weather is really active, a 1 
> week Sat loop. I am very happy now.

Well, this loop:

http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/Weather/jcuaus_loop.html

animates the last 26 enhanced IR images (past 4 days) of Australia, from 
the JCU archive.


Cheers

--

Robert A. Goler        

School of Mathematical Sciences
PO Box 28M
Monash University
Clayton, Vic 3800
Australia

ph. +61 3 9905 4424
email: Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au
http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/

--


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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: AUS SAT PIC
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 01:26:36 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


THANK YOU, Mr. Goler. Sat pics are my favorite kind of "eye candy". Could
you please give me some history/background on Monash University? How did it
get its name? Thanks again and have an AWESOME week!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Goler" <Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: AUS SAT PIC


>
> > I'd like to see them spend a little more time
> > and show a 24-hour Sat loop, or if the weather is really active, a 1
> > week Sat loop. I am very happy now.
>
> Well, this loop:
>
> http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/Weather/jcuaus_loop.html
>
> animates the last 26 enhanced IR images (past 4 days) of Australia, from
> the JCU archive.
>
>
> Cheers
>
> --
>
> Robert A. Goler
>
> School of Mathematical Sciences
> PO Box 28M
> Monash University
> Clayton, Vic 3800
> Australia
>
> ph. +61 3 9905 4424
> email: Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au
> http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/
>
> --
>
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

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 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Like Spring
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:28:41 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I punched in a 20.6C here at 12.33pm after a low of 
5.3 at 6.30 this morning. And a windy day at 41.8kmh (NW) at 1.06pm today. I'm 
not up with my averages etc here but I'd say it was a lot warmer than it should 
be! Also noticed a few isolated dragonflies about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Off topic but
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:38:32 +1000
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<x-html>
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm way off topic here but just need some info on 
ADSL. As far as I know you must be close to and exchange or it doesn't 
work?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It works through your existing phone line but 
allows you to stay on-line in-definitely and you can still use your phone as 
normal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One day I want to put my weather station on-line 
and this would be the bees knees.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any help..................</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:45:35 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
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<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm trying not to be sceptical here but Yarrawonga 
radar is showing that its raining here at 1845. Maybe it needs a little 
tuning.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's cloudy here, but hight cloud, doesn't even 
look like rain.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Squall line perhaps?
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:51:55 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
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<x-html>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Squall line developing west of Melbourne at present 
perhaps?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Jason Beer" <jasonbeer at minmail.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Off topic but
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:11:53 +0200
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Hello 
Bussy,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>yes 
ASDL does not work or not that well if you are not within 2kms? of the 
exchange.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Be 
careful I have read lately that Telstra were spliting the normal phone 
connection and selling it as ASDL. But this is not giving correct 
bandwidth.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Check 
with Telstra regarding distance and if they split your existing line. However 
they have been known to give incorrect info(lie???).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Your 
other statements are correct.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I have 
Cable at home. Permanenetly connected $40 a month. However I am in Sweden. Check 
Optus and/or Foxtel. Internet cable into your house was why they rolled out all 
those ugly cables throughout OZ it had nothing to do with TV channels. 
Satellitte would have been the sensible choice for a country as big as OZ for 
TV. It works extremely well here in Europe. But they didn´t know Internet would 
be possible through that medium then.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
think Chello are in OZ. I had very good service with them in Sweden. Again for 
$40 a month.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
size=2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
  size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
  aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com 
  [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]<B>On Behalf Of 
  </B>Bussy<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:39 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
  aussie-weather<BR><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Off topic but<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm way off topic here but just need some info on 
  ADSL. As far as I know you must be close to and exchange or it doesn't 
  work?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It works through your existing phone line but 
  allows you to stay on-line in-definitely and you can still use your phone as 
  normal.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One day I want to put my weather station on-line 
  and this would be the bees knees.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any help..................</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Les Crossan" <les.crossan at blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>, <cadence at rubix.net.au>
Subject: aus-wx: For SDS Sufferers
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:29:52 +0100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Everybody - </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The UK has been getting its fair share of action 
lately those who can suggest you have a look at uk.sci.weather or 
mailgate.org.uk or google groups for words that I know you like to 
see!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Les</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From: "Shane Williams" <switch76 at winshop.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Off topic but
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:41:36 +1000
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Hi Jason, Unfortunately Chello finished
here in OZ in January.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>It was the best
broadband service I had ever had since cable in </span></font><st1:City><st1:place><font
  size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:navy'>Brisbane</span></font></st1:place></st1:City><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'>.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span>$ 57.95 for Chello was a
good deal.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cheers Shane.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Now its back to watching the skies.<span
style='mso-spacerun:yes'>  </span></span></font><font size=2 color=navy
face=Wingdings><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;mso-ascii-font-family:
Arial;mso-hansi-font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:navy;
mso-char-type:symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Wingdings'><span style='mso-char-type:
symbol;mso-symbol-font-family:Wingdings'>J</span></span></font><font size=2
color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:navy'><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoPlainText><font size=2 color=navy face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Shane Williams<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 color=navy face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt;color:navy;mso-no-proof:yes'>Gold Coast, Queensland<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b> aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com] <b><span style='font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Jason Beer<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Sunday, August 11, 2002 7:12
PM<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> aussie-weather at world.std.com<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE: aus-wx: Off topic but</span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Hello Bussy,</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>yes ASDL does not work or
not that well if you are not within 2kms? of the exchange.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Be careful I have read
lately that Telstra were spliting the normal phone connection and selling it as
ASDL. But this is not giving correct bandwidth.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Check with Telstra
regarding distance and if they split your existing line. However they have been
known to give incorrect info(lie???).</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>Your other statements are
correct.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I have Cable at home.
Permanenetly connected $40 a month. However I am in Sweden. Check Optus and/or
Foxtel. Internet cable into your house was why they rolled out all those ugly
cables throughout OZ it had nothing to do with TV channels. Satellitte would
have been the sensible choice for a country as big as OZ for TV. It works
extremely well here in Europe. But they didn´t know Internet would be possible
through that medium then.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>I think Chello are in OZ.
I had very good service with them in </span></font><st1:country-region><st1:place><font
  size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
  color:blue'>Sweden</span></font></st1:place></st1:country-region><font
size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
color:blue'>. Again for $40 a month.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 color=blue face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:blue'>cheers</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>

<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:
12.0pt;margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma'>-----Original Message-----<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>From:</span></b>
aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On
Behalf Of </span></b>Bussy<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> </span></font><st1:date
Month="8" Day="11" Year="2002"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:
 10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>Sunday, August 11, 2002</span></font></st1:date><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> </span></font><st1:time
Hour="10" Minute="39"><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
 font-family:Tahoma'>10:39 AM</span></font></st1:time><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'><br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> aussie-weather<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> aus-wx: Off topic but</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I'm way off topic here but just need
some info on ADSL. As far as I know you must be close to and exchange or it
doesn't work?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>It works through your existing phone
line but allows you to stay on-line in-definitely and you can still use your
phone as normal.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>One day I want to put my weather
station on-line and this would be the bees knees.</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Any help..................</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.5in'><font size=2 face=Arial><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Bussy (</span></font><st1:place><st1:City><font
  size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Rutherglen</span></font></st1:City><font
 size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><st1:State><font
  size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>NE</span></font></st1:State></st1:place><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'> </span></font><st1:State><st1:place><font
  size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Victoria</span></font></st1:place></st1:State><font
size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>)</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

</blockquote>

</div>

</body>

</html>


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From: "Richard Modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:55:00 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>your lucky bussy, mt 
gambier radar doesnt need tuning , it needs replacing.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>naracoorte</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=bussie at netc.net.au href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au">Bussy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 6:15 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm trying not to be sceptical here but 
  Yarrawonga radar is showing that its raining here at 1845. Maybe it needs a 
  little tuning.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's cloudy here, but hight cloud, doesn't even 
  look like rain.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Richard Modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Off topic but
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:55:02 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
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<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>jason, country towns in 
aus. are on austar sattelite exept w.a. i'm not sure what they've got, but it 
beats the hell out of that ugly crap they shoved in the cities. why they gave 
sat. to country towns and not the cities beats the daylights out of me but it 
gives creedence to your explanation. large companies and govt. lying through 
their teeth with blatent disregard for the average person to get what they want, 
so what else is new.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>regards</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff size=2>richard,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#0000ff 
size=2>naracoorte,s.a.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=jasonbeer at minmail.net href="mailto:jasonbeer at minmail.net">Jason 
  Beer</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 6:41 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: aus-wx: Off topic but</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Hello Bussy,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>yes 
  ASDL does not work or not that well if you are not within 2kms? of the 
  exchange.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Be 
  careful I have read lately that Telstra were spliting the normal phone 
  connection and selling it as ASDL. But this is not giving correct 
  bandwidth.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>Check with Telstra regarding distance and if they split your existing 
  line. However they have been known to give incorrect 
  info(lie???).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Your 
  other statements are correct.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
  have Cable at home. Permanenetly connected $40 a month. However I am in 
  Sweden. Check Optus and/or Foxtel. Internet cable into your house was why they 
  rolled out all those ugly cables throughout OZ it had nothing to do with TV 
  channels. Satellitte would have been the sensible choice for a country as big 
  as OZ for TV. It works extremely well here in Europe. But they didn´t know 
  Internet would be possible through that medium then.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>I 
  think Chello are in OZ. I had very good service with them in Sweden. Again for 
  $40 a month.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=040190409-11082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff 
  size=2>cheers</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma 
    size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
    aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com 
    [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]<B>On Behalf Of 
    </B>Bussy<BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 10:39 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
    aussie-weather<BR><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Off topic but<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm way off topic here but just need some info 
    on ADSL. As far as I know you must be close to and exchange or it doesn't 
    work?</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It works through your existing phone line but 
    allows you to stay on-line in-definitely and you can still use your phone as 
    normal.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One day I want to put my weather station 
    on-line and this would be the bees knees.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any help..................</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
  Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 19:54:30 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Off topic but
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.4
X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.2
X-Return-Path: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


ASDL is a "last mile by copper" technology that requires some form of 
high-bandwidth carrier such as fibre-optic trunk cables or whatever to 
within 1.6 km of the end point.
Here in HK, as millions of people are not that close to an exchange, they 
ran broadband cables to distribution points in every estate or every 
village.  From there they send the signal through your normal copper 
phone line, but at a totally different frequency so that it doesn't 
interfere with your phone.
In Oz, for it to really work satisfactorily, unless you are less than 
1.6 km  from your local exchange, then a broadband cable would have to be 
laid out from the exchange towards your place.  I suppose the broadband 
would still be much faster than a dial-up modem connection over longer 
lengths of copper, but I should imagine the performance would be very 
much below normal broadband.  If cable TV has been laid in your area, 
those cables will work just as well.
Here in HK I used to have a broadband connection using my telephone line 
from the distribution point about 150 metres away.  It was blisteringly 
fast, but very expensive.  More recently I swapped to getting broadband 
through the Cable TV system which means 24 hours per day, seven days per 
week connection, it's noticeably slower, but much cheaper at HK$187 
(about AUD$43) per month.

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 18:38:32 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Off topic but

> I'm way off topic here but just need some info on ADSL. As far as I
> know you must be close to and exchange or it doesn't work?
> It works through your existing phone line but allows you to stay
> on-line in-definitely and you can still use your phone as normal.
> One day I want to put my weather station on-line and this would be the
> bees knees.
> Any help..................
> 
> Bussy (Rutherglen NE Victoria)
> 

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From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 23:26:35 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Perhaps there is virga.&nbsp; Sometimes it is not 
all that visible, just a thought.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=bussie at netc.net.au href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au">Bussy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 6:45 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm trying not to be sceptical here but 
  Yarrawonga radar is showing that its raining here at 1845. Maybe it needs a 
  little tuning.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's cloudy here, but hight cloud, doesn't even 
  look like rain.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Simon Angell" <seangell at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:09:28 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2002 16:09:43.0469 (UTC) FILETIME=[8125CDD0:01C24151]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It has been said on here a few weeks back that 
Y'Wonga clearly shows up Virga and is Suppose to be getting recalibrated, dunno 
when tho.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=thunder at ozthunder.com href="mailto:thunder at ozthunder.com">Michael 
  Thompson</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:26 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga 
  radar</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Perhaps there is virga.&nbsp; Sometimes it is not 
  all that visible, just a thought.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=bussie at netc.net.au href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au">Bussy</A> 
</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
    title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 6:45 
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm trying not to be sceptical here but 
    Yarrawonga radar is showing that its raining here at 1845. Maybe it needs a 
    little tuning.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's cloudy here, but hight cloud, doesn't even 
    look like rain.</FONT></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
  Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Simon Angell" <seangell at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Off topic but
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 02:32:31 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2002 16:32:55.0179 (UTC) FILETIME=[BEABE5B0:01C24154]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>ADSL in AU is set at a 5km distance AND you meet 
the line speed tests of 1.5mbps, there are quite a few ADSL enabled ISP's how 
ever most of these are resold telsra products, some are actually sold alongside 
telstra's but not actually using testra equipment (except&nbsp;for the lines). 
The 1.5mbs and 5km limits are a cop out, ADSL technology works fine out to 12kms 
but speed is the thing, test show on good quaility lines and 12kms a maximum of 
128kbps service can be obtained, 8kms is around 256kbps but it does vary on line 
quality. another thing to remember you can live within the 5km limit but the 
actual line length to your residences can be twice as far.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>have a look here, <A 
href="http://www.whirlpool.net.au/">http://www.whirlpool.net.au/</A> these guys 
are working hard to get broadband more accessable, infact they have sucessfully 
lobbied telstra to "review" its line speed tests from 1.5Mbps to the requested 
service speed.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=bussie at netc.net.au href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au">Bussy</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 6:38 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Off topic but</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm way off topic here but just need some info on 
  ADSL. As far as I know you must be close to and exchange or it doesn't 
  work?</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It works through your existing phone line but 
  allows you to stay on-line in-definitely and you can still use your phone as 
  normal.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>One day I want to put my weather station on-line 
  and this would be the bees knees.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Any help..................</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 06:58:41 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<HTML><HEAD>
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<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sorry. I missed that message :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It has been said on here a few weeks back that 
  Y'Wonga clearly shows up Virga and is Suppose to be getting recalibrated, 
  dunno when tho.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Perhaps there is virga.&nbsp; Sometimes it is not 
  all that visible, just a thought</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Low level snow Victoria.
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:53:11 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Aug 2002 23:55:01.0376 (UTC) FILETIME=[81845800:01C24192]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<HTML><HEAD>
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<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi all snow bunnies.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Snow has been falling down to 400m over the 
southwest of Victoria this morning, snow has also been reported from Bambra in 
the Otway range elevation about 320m. There is a small cold pool vorticity area 
over the south west of the state, the thermal trough looks to be very cold and 
appears it will pass across the central region of&nbsp; Victoria around midday, 
with a bit of luck some of this cold air may get into Blue mountains tonight and 
Tuesday, looks good in Tasmania too....regards Clyve 
Herbert.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: David.Carroll at CountryEnergy.com.au
Subject: aus-wx: sleet/snow - Oberon
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7  March 21, 2001
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:02:14 +1000
X-MIMETrack: Serialize by Router on CENTRAL01/Servers/Country Energy(Release 5.07a |May
 14, 2001) at 12/08/2002 10:00:34 AM
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi all.

Just been advised from Oberon office, that snow/sleet falling in the Oberon
area..  Also hail reported around Yetholme area earlier this morning.. Is
currently raining in Bathurst and some very cold winds as well.

Shall keep updates coming during day.

Dave




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From: "Mark Hardy" <mhardy at magna.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:12:18 +1000
Organization: The Weather Company
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2627
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<x-html>
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<DIV><SPAN class=958540800-12082002><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>Last I 
heard from the Bureau is that it is calibrated correctly.Level 1 is 6dbZ to 
28dbZ which is quite a large range and explains why so much is appears in level 
1. Yarrawonga is more sensitive than others due to the larger dish 
size.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>Mark Hardy</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2>The Weather Company Pty. 
Ltd.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV align=left><FONT face=Arial size=2><A 
href="http://www.theweather.com.au/">http://www.theweather.com.au</A></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left><FONT 
  face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> 
  aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com 
  [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Simon 
  Angell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 12 August 2002 2:09 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 
  aussie-weather at world.std.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga 
  radar<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It has been said on here a few weeks back that 
  Y'Wonga clearly shows up Virga and is Suppose to be getting recalibrated, 
  dunno when tho.</FONT></DIV>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
  style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
    <DIV 
    style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
    <A title=thunder at ozthunder.com href="mailto:thunder at ozthunder.com">Michael 
    Thompson</A> </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
    title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
    href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
    </DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:26 
    PM</DIV>
    <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga 
    radar</DIV>
    <DIV><BR></DIV>
    <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Perhaps there is virga.&nbsp; Sometimes it is 
    not all that visible, just a thought.</FONT></DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
    style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
      <DIV 
      style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
      <A title=bussie at netc.net.au href="mailto:bussie at netc.net.au">Bussy</A> 
      </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
      title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
      href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather</A> </DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, August 11, 2002 6:45 
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: Yarrawonga 
      radar</DIV>
      <DIV><BR></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm trying not to be sceptical here but 
      Yarrawonga radar is showing that its raining here at 1845. Maybe it needs 
      a little tuning.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>It's cloudy here, but hight cloud, doesn't 
      even look like rain.</FONT></DIV>
      <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
    Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:16:59 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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> 
> Hello Bussy
> 
> Tornadoes would leave marks on the ground by the definition. I don't believe
> there are many tornadoes that are unreported
> because farmers, station owners and bush pilots are very observant people
> and there would be word out by now (200 odd years) if Australia had regular
> occurrences.
> 
> Chas
> Strahan Tasmania

A stat I've posted before and will again: the only systematic study 
of reported tornado frequency in Australia, over a 10-year period 
between about 1958-1967, found that, in all cases, the grid boxes
which included the major cities (where one would expect near 100% 
reporting) had about 10 times the reported frequency of the grid
boxes surrounding them. 

This suggests pretty strongly that, at that time, approximately 90%
of tornadoes in rural areas were unreported. I would expect the
proportion to have dropped somewhat since 1967, because of greater
awareness (and, in recent years, the fact that people are actively
chasing), but I would expect it is still a long way above zero.

Blair
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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aus Wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: SE Australian cold pool
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 10:47:15 +1000
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Morning all,

Nice cold pool crossing the coast near Mt Gambier this morning and there has
already been some low level glaciation near Melbourne.  The day looks to get
more interesting with a drop in the 500hPa temperature from -25C to -34C
between last night & this morning.  Mt Gambier's 500hPa temperature dropped
from -20C to -33.5C in the 24hours between yesterday morning & this
morning!!!!!  (a change of this magnitude made me check twice to make sure I
was reading the skew-t correctly! - might be a bit unstable today! - </ end
understatement!>)

http://www.bom.gov.au/products/reg/IDS65024/IDS65024.shtml
username: bomw0007
password: aviation


Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------

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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:19:16 +1000
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Hi Chas,

And from me also, something I have posted before, and extending on Blair's
comment, which basically is that only tornadoes in populated areas get
reported.  The vast majority of tornadoes are relatively weak affairs, and
that applies worldwide.  While I am not aware of any study as such, it seems
to me that for every step of the F scale, F0..F5, there are approx ten times
as many tornadoes at each lower level, thus for every F3, there are 10 x F2,
100 x F1, etc.  Given that F0 and F1 tornadoes barely rate a mention, other
than brief comments in the media such as 'mini-tornado', 'freak storm',
'violent storm', etc., it is not surprising that we have no idea how many
real tornadoes do occur in this country.

What we do know, is that for the 2500 sq km box covering each of Brisbane,
Sydney, Melboune & Perth capitals, the number of tornadoes per year, albeit
mostly very weak (i.e., F0/F1), is actually surprisingly constant and
conservatively around 2 per yr (some might suggest a higher figure than this
:).  Given the widespread geographical nature of these locations, it would
seem reasonable to expect a fairly similar density across the entire
southern half of Australia below the tropics.  Assuming an approximate 3
million sq km, this yields a quite staggering number of 2,400 tornadoes per
year.

As a rough check on this, if we take the Bucca and Buladelah events as 2
representative known F4 tornadoes over a 20 year period, and apply the 10x
rule suggested above, we get a figure of 1,100 F0/F1 tornadoes per year.
This agrees fairly well and allows for at least 2 other F4 events which went
unreported.

Obviously there is a large amount of guess work in this email, but it is
sure worth pondering.

Regards,
John W.
>snip
-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Blair Trewin
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:17 AM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...


>
> Hello Bussy
>
> Tornadoes would leave marks on the ground by the definition. I don't
believe
> there are many tornadoes that are unreported
> because farmers, station owners and bush pilots are very observant people
> and there would be word out by now (200 odd years) if Australia had
regular
> occurrences.
>
> Chas
> Strahan Tasmania

A stat I've posted before and will again: the only systematic study
of reported tornado frequency in Australia, over a 10-year period
between about 1958-1967, found that, in all cases, the grid boxes
which included the major cities (where one would expect near 100%
reporting) had about 10 times the reported frequency of the grid
boxes surrounding them.

This suggests pretty strongly that, at that time, approximately 90%
of tornadoes in rural areas were unreported. I would expect the
proportion to have dropped somewhat since 1967, because of greater
awareness (and, in recent years, the fact that people are actively
chasing), but I would expect it is still a long way above zero.

Blair
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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Large willy willy  at  Mt. Crosby
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 11:19:27 +1000
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Hi All,

Very large diameter willy willy passed through Mt. Crosby at about 2:00pm
yesterday.  Area of strongest winds was about 80m in diameter, with inflow
winds in excess of 60km/hr, accompanied by a small area of high based
turbulent Cu wisps.  Conditions were 0/8 sunny and calm before the sudden
onset of the event and only lightly breezy after.  Essentially this occured
shortly before the sea breeze moved in.  Made a huge mess of my freshly
swept driveway by relocating a large amount of leaves/mulch.  After it
passed you could hear the wind roaring in the trees gradually die away into
the distance as it moved away to the West.

John.

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From: "Laurier Williams" <wbc at ozemail.com.au>
To: "Aussie-Weather at World. Std. Com" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Blue Mountains snow
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:13:48 +1000
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Rain turned to sleet at Katoomba around 11.30am, and sleet mixed with
periods of snow is now (midday) falling at Blackheath. The Bureau has at
last put "Some light snowfalls or sleet likely on the higher grounds" into
their midday Central Tablelands forecast, but nothing for the rest of the
week. I cannot understand their rationale, as it seems at odds with all the
model guidance I've seen. The GASP for later in the week bears an uncanny
resemblance to the 17/18 July 1965 situation which gave the Blue Mountains 2
feet of snow -- a good SE stream with thicknesses around 536 and 700 temps
around -10.

Temp in the screen at Blackheath at midday 2.5. Mt Boyce AWS is now back on
air.

Laurier

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From: David.Carroll at CountryEnergy.com.au
Subject: aus-wx: snow in Katoomba
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
X-Mailer: Lotus Notes Release 5.0.7  March 21, 2001
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:15:00 +1000
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Just been advised by SMS from Lindsay, snowing in Katoomba now.

Also snowing still in Oberon, had stopped for a short time.


Dave

http://www.weatherzone.com.au/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=000023

 View this topic.




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From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:29:32 +1000
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Bussy, Chas, John & all,

It appears that the only person who reported the Euroa tornado seems to have
been me.  What about the 6 people riding past on horses who saw what I was
videoing & didn't stop to look?  What about the eyewitnesses that I have
unearthed with the help of a couple of locals?  What about the people
driving up the Freeway between me & it.  I hadn't been proactive in this
matter, maybe no-one would have known about this one either......

Why is it that since the aussie-wx list was created & ASWA got underway, the
number of tornado & significant funnel sightings being reported to the BoM
has 'gone through the roof' (as in Victoria during the past few years - I
suspect the same thing happens in the other states)???

Is it because there are now more people who are more aware out there looking
and photographing - and actually reporting??

Jane
--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------


> Hi Chas,
>
> And from me also, something I have posted before, and extending on Blair's
> comment, which basically is that only tornadoes in populated areas get
> reported.  The vast majority of tornadoes are relatively weak affairs, and
> that applies worldwide.  While I am not aware of any study as such, it
seems
> to me that for every step of the F scale, F0..F5, there are approx ten
times
> as many tornadoes at each lower level, thus for every F3, there are 10 x
F2,
> 100 x F1, etc.  Given that F0 and F1 tornadoes barely rate a mention,
other
> than brief comments in the media such as 'mini-tornado', 'freak storm',
> 'violent storm', etc., it is not surprising that we have no idea how many
> real tornadoes do occur in this country.
>
> What we do know, is that for the 2500 sq km box covering each of Brisbane,
> Sydney, Melboune & Perth capitals, the number of tornadoes per year,
albeit
> mostly very weak (i.e., F0/F1), is actually surprisingly constant and
> conservatively around 2 per yr (some might suggest a higher figure than
this
> :).  Given the widespread geographical nature of these locations, it would
> seem reasonable to expect a fairly similar density across the entire
> southern half of Australia below the tropics.  Assuming an approximate 3
> million sq km, this yields a quite staggering number of 2,400 tornadoes
per
> year.
>
> As a rough check on this, if we take the Bucca and Buladelah events as 2
> representative known F4 tornadoes over a 20 year period, and apply the 10x
> rule suggested above, we get a figure of 1,100 F0/F1 tornadoes per year.
> This agrees fairly well and allows for at least 2 other F4 events which
went
> unreported.
>
> Obviously there is a large amount of guess work in this email, but it is
> sure worth pondering.
>
> Regards,
> John W.
> >snip
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Blair Trewin
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:17 AM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
>
>
> >
> > Hello Bussy
> >
> > Tornadoes would leave marks on the ground by the definition. I don't
> believe
> > there are many tornadoes that are unreported
> > because farmers, station owners and bush pilots are very observant
people
> > and there would be word out by now (200 odd years) if Australia had
> regular
> > occurrences.
> >
> > Chas
> > Strahan Tasmania
>
> A stat I've posted before and will again: the only systematic study
> of reported tornado frequency in Australia, over a 10-year period
> between about 1958-1967, found that, in all cases, the grid boxes
> which included the major cities (where one would expect near 100%
> reporting) had about 10 times the reported frequency of the grid
> boxes surrounding them.
>
> This suggests pretty strongly that, at that time, approximately 90%
> of tornadoes in rural areas were unreported. I would expect the
> proportion to have dropped somewhat since 1967, because of greater
> awareness (and, in recent years, the fact that people are actively
> chasing), but I would expect it is still a long way above zero.
>
> Blair
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> ---
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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:42:13 +1000
From: Peter Creswick <ventus45 at ihug.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Yarrawonga radar
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Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Any more details on the radar Mark, ie, cost, model, frequency, prf,
dish size, gain, beam width, etc ................ ?
Also, what is the site elevation ?
PC

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From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:42:49 +1000
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Hi John.
Your calculations are on the right track....regards Clyve H.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 11:19 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...


> Hi Chas,
>
> And from me also, something I have posted before, and extending on Blair's
> comment, which basically is that only tornadoes in populated areas get
> reported.  The vast majority of tornadoes are relatively weak affairs, and
> that applies worldwide.  While I am not aware of any study as such, it
seems
> to me that for every step of the F scale, F0..F5, there are approx ten
times
> as many tornadoes at each lower level, thus for every F3, there are 10 x
F2,
> 100 x F1, etc.  Given that F0 and F1 tornadoes barely rate a mention,
other
> than brief comments in the media such as 'mini-tornado', 'freak storm',
> 'violent storm', etc., it is not surprising that we have no idea how many
> real tornadoes do occur in this country.
>
> What we do know, is that for the 2500 sq km box covering each of Brisbane,
> Sydney, Melboune & Perth capitals, the number of tornadoes per year,
albeit
> mostly very weak (i.e., F0/F1), is actually surprisingly constant and
> conservatively around 2 per yr (some might suggest a higher figure than
this
> :).  Given the widespread geographical nature of these locations, it would
> seem reasonable to expect a fairly similar density across the entire
> southern half of Australia below the tropics.  Assuming an approximate 3
> million sq km, this yields a quite staggering number of 2,400 tornadoes
per
> year.
>
> As a rough check on this, if we take the Bucca and Buladelah events as 2
> representative known F4 tornadoes over a 20 year period, and apply the 10x
> rule suggested above, we get a figure of 1,100 F0/F1 tornadoes per year.
> This agrees fairly well and allows for at least 2 other F4 events which
went
> unreported.
>
> Obviously there is a large amount of guess work in this email, but it is
> sure worth pondering.
>
> Regards,
> John W.
> >snip
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Blair Trewin
> Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 10:17 AM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
>
>
> >
> > Hello Bussy
> >
> > Tornadoes would leave marks on the ground by the definition. I don't
> believe
> > there are many tornadoes that are unreported
> > because farmers, station owners and bush pilots are very observant
people
> > and there would be word out by now (200 odd years) if Australia had
> regular
> > occurrences.
> >
> > Chas
> > Strahan Tasmania
>
> A stat I've posted before and will again: the only systematic study
> of reported tornado frequency in Australia, over a 10-year period
> between about 1958-1967, found that, in all cases, the grid boxes
> which included the major cities (where one would expect near 100%
> reporting) had about 10 times the reported frequency of the grid
> boxes surrounding them.
>
> This suggests pretty strongly that, at that time, approximately 90%
> of tornadoes in rural areas were unreported. I would expect the
> proportion to have dropped somewhat since 1967, because of greater
> awareness (and, in recent years, the fact that people are actively
> chasing), but I would expect it is still a long way above zero.
>
> Blair
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>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 12:57:17 +1000
From: Peter Creswick <ventus45 at ihug.com.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Euroa and t's in general...
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Perhaps Jane, but perhaps not as well.
What about all those people you mentioned, they saw what you saw, but they did
not ring the BoM or the media either.
So, what is the level of "consciousness of significant weather events" in the
population as a whole ?
Apparently quite low if this case is anything to go by.  People may "see" but do
they report ?
The posts above re sightings in the dense population areas versus country areas
is interesting.
Let's assume that only 1 in 100 people who saw a "T" would "actually" take steps
to report it.
If only 100 people see an event, you have a 1% chance it will be reported.
If 10,000 people in a city area see it, you have a near 100% chance it will be
reported.
If it occurs in the bush therefore, the number of potential observers in any
given geographical area is so low that the probability of any of them even
observing the event is low, and even if someone did, the probability of that
observer reporting is low.  Then there is the point that these are low level
events altitude wise, so "eye sight wise" there is a limited "observable range"
for a person on the ground, not to mention topography and trees etc further
limiting line of sight etc.  No matter how you look at it, in sparsely populated
areas the probability of detection by anyone is very low, let alone the
probability of reporting even if observed.
Compound two lows and you get very little likelihood of a report.  It makes you
wonder how many there really are occurring and going unreported.

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X-Originating-IP: [202.137.90.3]
From: "Leslie Baxter" <mrt1000 at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: A Wild Drive home
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 03:16:43 +0000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Aug 2002 03:16:43.0687 (UTC) FILETIME=[AF0E7370:01C241AE]
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<x-flowed>

Hello all

Well Yesterday evening was well a interesting one. I had a big weekend in 
Colac celabrating my cousin's 21st, and the drive home well was hmmm fun?! 
From colac to ballarat there was Cbs everywhere! The best one was to the 
south of Colac on the otways, it even had an overshoot! Unfortunatally I 
didn't get any pics because I had mum on board. But nearing Ballarat a 
awesome Cb unloaded itself! A massive CG blinded me for a sec and then 
almost home Wham! A microburst of hail betweeen 5mm and 12mm slammed into 
the car and the road well turned into a skating ring!  A car that was in 
front of me had a trailer and span wildly out of control but luckly hit 
nothing, and that was only doing 60km/h! So got home pretty excitied the 
storm going off with a few CGs and then as if the fuse had been pulled 
nothing went quiet, no static on the radio and the wind dropped to zero, yup 
just as I was about to go and have a patrol.

Anyway hope to see most of you at the big meeting in sydney, should be great

cheers
Les Baxter

Ballarat Weather


_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
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</x-flowed>
From: "Sha" <ogomoo at bigpond.com>
To: "Aussie Weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 13:56:20 +1000
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<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Papyrus color=#000080 size=4><STRONG><EM>Does anyone have any 
further comments in regard to this article please 
?<BR><BR>Love</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=Papyrus color=#000080 
size=4>Sha</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=5><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=5><STRONG>
<HR>
Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'</HEADLINE></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<P class=articledetails><BYLINE>By&nbsp;Paul 
Daley<BR>London</BYLINE><BR><DATE>August 12 2002&nbsp; <A 
href="http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/11/1028158046639.html">http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/11/1028158046639.html</A></DATE><BR></P>
<DIV><BR clear=all></DIV><BOD>
<P>
<P>A three-kilometre-deep noxious cloud of pollution floating above South Asia 
could irreversibly affect agricultural production and permanently change weather 
patterns, a United Nations report claims.</P>
<P>Scientists working for the UN Environment Program have found that the "Asian 
brown haze" has the potential to threaten the lives of hundreds of thousands of 
people. </P>
<P>The program, which has released the results of a preliminary study into the 
cloud, says the haze - made up of acids, ash aerosols and other particles - is 
already triggering droughts and could cause "several hundreds of thousands" of 
deaths from respiratory illnesses. </P>
<P>Although the study does not focus specifically on Australia, its findings 
indicate that the El Nino weather phenomenon could become more pronounced. </P>
<P>The program's executive director, Klaus Toepfer, said: "The haze is the 
result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic increases 
in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and power stations and 
emissions from millions of inefficient cokers burning wood, cow dung and other 
bio fuels.</P></ISLANDAD>
<P></P>
<P>"There are also global implications, not least because a pollution parcel 
like this, which stretches three kilometres high, can travel halfway round the 
globe in a week."</P>
<P><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<BR>Checked by AVG 
anti-virus system (<A 
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From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 14:23:42 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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I haven't seen the paper (or even the media release) it's based on
so I don't feel in a position to comment further (SBS wanted me to
do an interview about it but I only know what I've read in the papers,
told them so and bounced them to CSIRO).

I'll post a follow-up if I get any further background info.

Blair

> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> 
> ------=_NextPart_000_007E_01C24208.09A253C0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> Does anyone have any further comments in regard to this article please ?
> 
> Love
> Sha
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> -------
> Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'
> By Paul Daley
> London
> August 12 2002  =
> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/11/1028158046639.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A three-kilometre-deep noxious cloud of pollution floating above South =
> Asia could irreversibly affect agricultural production and permanently =
> change weather patterns, a United Nations report claims.
> 
> Scientists working for the UN Environment Program have found that the =
> "Asian brown haze" has the potential to threaten the lives of hundreds =
> of thousands of people.=20
> 
> The program, which has released the results of a preliminary study into =
> the cloud, says the haze - made up of acids, ash aerosols and other =
> particles - is already triggering droughts and could cause "several =
> hundreds of thousands" of deaths from respiratory illnesses.=20
> 
> Although the study does not focus specifically on Australia, its =
> findings indicate that the El Nino weather phenomenon could become more =
> pronounced.=20
> 
> The program's executive director, Klaus Toepfer, said: "The haze is the =
> result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic =
> increases in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and =
> power stations and emissions from millions of inefficient cokers burning =
> wood, cow dung and other bio fuels.
> 
> 
> "There are also global implications, not least because a pollution =
> parcel like this, which stretches three kilometres high, can travel =
> halfway round the globe in a week."
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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> 
> 
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> Content-Type: text/html;
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> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
> <HTML><HEAD>
> <META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
> charset=3Diso-8859-1">
> <META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4807.2300" name=3DGENERATOR>
> <STYLE></STYLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
> <DIV><FONT face=3DPapyrus color=3D#000080 size=3D4><STRONG><EM>Does =
> anyone have any=20
> further comments in regard to this article please=20
> ?<BR><BR>Love</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=3DPapyrus color=3D#000080=20
> size=3D4>Sha</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D5><STRONG></STRONG></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
> <DIV><FONT size=3D5><STRONG>
> <HR>
> Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown =
> haze'</HEADLINE></STRONG></FONT></DIV>
> <P class=3Darticledetails><BYLINE>By&nbsp;Paul=20
> Daley<BR>London</BYLINE><BR><DATE>August 12 2002&nbsp; <A=20
> href=3D"http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/11/1028158046639.html">=
> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/11/1028158046639.html</A></DATE=
> ><BR></P>
> <DIV><BR clear=3Dall></DIV><BOD>
> <P>
> <P>A three-kilometre-deep noxious cloud of pollution floating above =
> South Asia=20
> could irreversibly affect agricultural production and permanently change =
> weather=20
> patterns, a United Nations report claims.</P>
> <P>Scientists working for the UN Environment Program have found that the =
> "Asian=20
> brown haze" has the potential to threaten the lives of hundreds of =
> thousands of=20
> people. </P>
> <P>The program, which has released the results of a preliminary study =
> into the=20
> cloud, says the haze - made up of acids, ash aerosols and other =
> particles - is=20
> already triggering droughts and could cause "several hundreds of =
> thousands" of=20
> deaths from respiratory illnesses. </P>
> <P>Although the study does not focus specifically on Australia, its =
> findings=20
> indicate that the El Nino weather phenomenon could become more =
> pronounced. </P>
> <P>The program's executive director, Klaus Toepfer, said: "The haze is =
> the=20
> result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic =
> increases=20
> in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and power =
> stations and=20
> emissions from millions of inefficient cokers burning wood, cow dung and =
> other=20
> bio fuels.</P></ISLANDAD>
> <P></P>
> <P>"There are also global implications, not least because a pollution =
> parcel=20
> like this, which stretches three kilometres high, can travel halfway =
> round the=20
> globe in a week."</P>
> <P><BR>---<BR>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.<BR>Checked by AVG=20
> anti-virus system (<A=20
> href=3D"http://www.grisoft.com">http://www.grisoft.com</A>).<BR>Version: =
> 6.0.381 /=20
> Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 2/08/2002</P></BODY></HTML>
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> 

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From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:51:30 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


I think it's more scaremongering rubbish. The scientists are getting a bit
desperate. Most top climatologists in the US still deny there is any
appreciable global warming problem, the IPCC itself has raised doubts about
its own previously published reports as well as recently electing a somewhat
skeptical frontman, and the US and Australian governments continue to
maintain quite rightly that the science still hasn't been proven. The latest
NASA report of July 2002 concludes that lower tropospheric data has again
failed to show any warming trend when averaged over the entire Earth, and in
fact the lower stratospheric data shows a significant cooling trend.
It has been proven that Antarctica is COOLING down meaning the poles aren't
melting, and the sealevels are decreasing - have been doing so in the
Pacific for the past 26 years. Last week it was vapour trails from jets that
was going to change the world's weather patterns, but everyone is now
yawning.
When the oil fields were set alight by Sadam Hussein after the Gulf War the
world's climatologists predicted a huge catastrophe and an altering forever
of the world's climate. But guess what..nothing happened. The effects were
barely felt 100 miles away. Even huge vlocanoes, like Lake Taupo in NZ in
186AD, whose plume was seen and reported over China, did not alter anything
permanently.
People underestimate the size of the earth and its power to self-adjust.
They WANT to believe the atmosphere is fragile and they want others to as
well so that they can trade their fix-it products. Mostly, the
scaremongerers are trying to reposition themselves politically and
financially. Most caring people fall for it and that's what they play on. If
you don't buy into their stupid rubbish they call you uncaring, unthinking
and say you must be being paid to say the opposite by the oil or coal
industry. I wish!!


----- Original Message -----
From: Sha
To: Aussie Weather
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'


Does anyone have any further comments in regard to this article please ?

Love
Sha



Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'
By Paul Daley
London
August 12 2002
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/11/1028158046639.html



A three-kilometre-deep noxious cloud of pollution floating above South Asia
could irreversibly affect agricultural production and permanently change
weather patterns, a United Nations report claims.
Scientists working for the UN Environment Program have found that the "Asian
brown haze" has the potential to threaten the lives of hundreds of thousands
of people.
The program, which has released the results of a preliminary study into the
cloud, says the haze - made up of acids, ash aerosols and other particles -
is already triggering droughts and could cause "several hundreds of
thousands" of deaths from respiratory illnesses.
Although the study does not focus specifically on Australia, its findings
indicate that the El Nino weather phenomenon could become more pronounced.
The program's executive director, Klaus Toepfer, said: "The haze is the
result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic
increases in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and power
stations and emissions from millions of inefficient cokers burning wood, cow
dung and other bio fuels.
"There are also global implications, not least because a pollution parcel
like this, which stretches three kilometres high, can travel halfway round
the globe in a week."

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.381 / Virus Database: 214 - Release Date: 2/08/2002

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From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 16:45:34 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
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Hi Ken,

It surely must be that the Earth is relatively stable system, i.e., any
perturbation tends to be counteracted to bring things back into balance.  It
is an equilibrium which has stood the test of time and appears quite robust.
If it were not, we would not be here, and Earth would have long ago
spiralled into an uninhabitable wasteland like Mars or Venus, perhaps
triggered by something like a large meteor impact or indeed, Lake Taupo,
which has the dubious distinction of being the source of the largest
volcanic eruptions known to mankind...

It is also evident that ice ages come and go, the cause of which is not
clear, but that large scale variations in the climate do occur over long
periods of time and even these do not break the equilibrium.

However, it would appear that the Earth is currently succumbing to the worst
plague in the entire history of the planet, i.e., the scourge of humanity,
along with it's unprecedented destruction of vegetation, gross production of
truely massive amounts of pollution, and cancerous growth of concrete
jungles.

How well the Earth's inbuilt corrective mechanisms cope with this is not yet
known, simply because the timescale on which it is occurring is far too
short in the overall scheme of things.  While we can debate whether of not
the effect is measurable yet, I am darn sure that by the time it is clearly
measurable, it will quite likely be too late to fix.  Right now the best
thing that could happen to mother Earth to save it from humanity, is a
really decent meteor impact.

Ultimately that may just be Nature's way of fixing it.

John.
>snip

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 2:51 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'


I think it's more scaremongering rubbish. The scientists are getting a bit
desperate. Most top climatologists in the US still deny there is any
appreciable global warming problem, the IPCC itself has raised doubts about
its own previously published reports as well as recently electing a somewhat
skeptical frontman, and the US and Australian governments continue to
maintain quite rightly that the science still hasn't been proven. The latest
NASA report of July 2002 concludes that lower tropospheric data has again
failed to show any warming trend when averaged over the entire Earth, and in
fact the lower stratospheric data shows a significant cooling trend.
It has been proven that Antarctica is COOLING down meaning the poles aren't
melting, and the sealevels are decreasing - have been doing so in the
Pacific for the past 26 years. Last week it was vapour trails from jets that
was going to change the world's weather patterns, but everyone is now
yawning.
When the oil fields were set alight by Sadam Hussein after the Gulf War the
world's climatologists predicted a huge catastrophe and an altering forever
of the world's climate. But guess what..nothing happened. The effects were
barely felt 100 miles away. Even huge vlocanoes, like Lake Taupo in NZ in
186AD, whose plume was seen and reported over China, did not alter anything
permanently.
People underestimate the size of the earth and its power to self-adjust.
They WANT to believe the atmosphere is fragile and they want others to as
well so that they can trade their fix-it products. Mostly, the
scaremongerers are trying to reposition themselves politically and
financially. Most caring people fall for it and that's what they play on. If
you don't buy into their stupid rubbish they call you uncaring, unthinking
and say you must be being paid to say the opposite by the oil or coal
industry. I wish!!


----- Original Message -----
From: Sha
To: Aussie Weather
Sent: Monday, August 12, 2002 3:56 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'


Does anyone have any further comments in regard to this article please ?

Love
Sha



Climate threatened by the 'Asian brown haze'
By Paul Daley
London
August 12 2002
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2002/08/11/1028158046639.html



A three-kilometre-deep noxious cloud of pollution floating above South Asia
could irreversibly affect agricultural production and permanently change
weather patterns, a United Nations report claims.
Scientists working for the UN Environment Program have found that the "Asian
brown haze" has the potential to threaten the lives of hundreds of thousands
of people.
The program, which has released the results of a preliminary study into the
cloud, says the haze - made up of acids, ash aerosols and other particles -
is already triggering droughts and could cause "several hundreds of
thousands" of deaths from respiratory illnesses.
Although the study does not focus specifically on Australia, its findings
indicate that the El Nino weather phenomenon could become more pronounced.
The program's executive director, Klaus Toepfer, said: "The haze is the
result of forest fires, the burning of agricultural wastes, dramatic
increases in the burning of fossil fuels in vehicles, industries and power
stations and emissions from millions of inefficient cokers burning wood, cow
dung and other bio fuels.
"There are also global implications, not least because a pollution parcel
like this, which stretches three kilometres high, can travel halfway round
the globe in a week."

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: U.S. Drought Update
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 01:46:14 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Here are 
some figures from an article in the Sunday, August 11, 2002 edition of the 
ARKANSAS-DEMOCRAT GAZETTE:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>More than 33% of the US are now in severe to 
extreme drought. More than 50% of the country is in moderate 
drought.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Crop losses are still being calculated, but in 
Nebraska, the total economic impact of the drought is at least $1.4 Billion US 
dollars.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In Colorado, farmers will lose an estimated $100 
Million on the winter wheat crop.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In Arizona, officials predict a $300 Million loss 
just to the livestock industry.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In some parts of the Southeast, drought is ravaging 
and widespread. From central Georgia through the middle of South and North 
Carolina and into central Virginia, rainfall is 60 Inches(1,524 mm) below 
normal.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Precipitation was 45% of normal through June in New 
Mexico, making this the 8th driest year since 1895.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Arizona received less than an Inch (25.4 mm)of rain 
in the same period; compared with an average of 4.6 Inches(116.8 
mm).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Colorado's snowpacks were 60% of average this year, 
meaning less runoff for storage reservoirs that supply water for 7 Western 
states.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Lake Powell is at 63% capacity, Lake Mead is at 67% 
capacity and could hit a 30-year low later this year.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thankfully, Arkansas' current condition is "near 
normal."<BR>Have an Excellent Week&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Cold day here
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:59:56 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>The day here started off pretty calm and&nbsp;got a 
lot worse&nbsp;rapidly by mid morning. Some very small hail during the morning 
and early arvo with the wind chill dropping to -3.9 at 2.20 this arvo with a 
gust of 46kmh and a grand dump here of point 6mm. There were lots of heavy 
showers around but most just missed us. Appeared to be some heavier falls around 
the Chiltern and Springhurst areas after driving my school bus. Very cold 
conditions :-)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Over and out from the NE.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Bloody Mini tornado's
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:07:43 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>There's been another "mini" tornado at Seal Rocks, 
Phillip Island according to Peter Mitchell on Seven news. It got about 4.6 
seconds of air time...........</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When are these "mini" tornado's going to grow up 
into just tornado's?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


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X-Originating-IP: [152.91.9.49]
From: "michael king" <mskikey at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Cold day here
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 18:11:41 +1000
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<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P>Just walked up Mt Taylor here in Canberra and it snowed lightly from the top (850 m) down to about (750m).<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Bussy" <BUSSIE at NETC.NET.AU>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: "aussie-weather" <AUSSIE-WEATHER at WORLD.STD.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: aus-wx: Cold day here 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 17:59:56 +1000 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;The day here started off pretty calm and got a lot worse rapidly by mid morning. Some very small hail during the morning and early arvo with the wind chill dropping to -3.9 at 2.20 this arvo with a gust of 46kmh and a grand dump here of point 6mm. There were lots of heavy showers around but most just missed us. Appeared to be some heavier falls around the Chiltern and Springhurst areas after driving my school bus. Very cold conditions :-) 
<DIV></D