http://australiasevereweather.com/


From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:15:57 +0930
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


ken,

i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you been
getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks obs.
whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked, thats
dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot on
the internet.

regards
richard modistach


----- Original Message -----
From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


> David
> First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
anymore.
> Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer about
> 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
rather
> not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not the
> regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of days
> ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in 1998, out
> of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the 23rd on
> this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between 27-29,
> clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who would
find
> that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then there
would
> be others who would rush to random number generators in order to satisfy
> themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have to
> convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described it for
> anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
>
> As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the trouble
to
> read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the theory of
> lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we can
get
> into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement critics
> are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise themselves
> with where I am coming from, but because they think they are scientists
they
> assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this is
> left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from Copernicus
down.
> In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were the
> founding fathers of modern science - all would have described themselves
as
> astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there should be
> always room for new approaches and reform.
>
> I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist, whatever that
> is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology can
> adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years, watching the
> moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the subject
> makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who hasn't
> read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data that
> related to the moon.
>
> After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the Nodal
Cycle,
> the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does, nor is
> phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
behaviour
> other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet, completely
> cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
>
> I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on 'profound',
as
> interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I say
dry
> and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was a dry
> day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for someone
> then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to accept re
> August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before passing
> judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make mistakes -
> that's how we learn.
>
> It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over me in
> that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical data
and
> multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and have to
> earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
through
> the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me and
> it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers from
> the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more fantastic.
> best wishes
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > Ken,
> >
> > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken seriously,
> can
> > you please explain.
> >
> > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the phase of
> the
> > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> prediction
> > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this year
that
> > leads you to believe that the August through November period should only
> get
> > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
driest
> > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such period
on
> > record.
> >
> > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently enduring
> > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good scientific
> theory
> > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > Dr David Jones
> >
> > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > National Climate Centre
> > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: A Visibility Ques.
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 17:20:42 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello To All:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I hope 
this question is not too foolish--since I'm not an aviator.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; The AWS 
at Mena Airport, on the Visibility reading, maxes out at 10 Miles(16.6km). What 
is the significance of 10 miles? (As of a few years ago, the AWS now says 
"Missing" for the Visibility report and cloud heights).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
Have a GREAT day/week&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:39:17 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Ken,

I agree with most of the sentiments you pass on here, certainly I would
consider a window of possible rain days an excellent forecast if it were
months ahead (which you do). As a meteorologist by training, I would like
to see the verifications that have been performed. This seems the only way
that you would be able to convince other meteorologists of the accuracy of
you're forecasts.
However the following statement concerns me
<snip>
This because I think in the past that was all
that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2
oclock
next friday!
<snip>
It is all that was required in the past. Nowadays the population want to
know if it will rain at 2 o'clock next Friday, because they will be doing
something. That is a problem which faces all forecasters these days - get
it right and no one remembers, get it wrong and everyone remembers.

Craig.


-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 10:22
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


Richard
I am satisfied with my hit rate, as must be others as my free ezine list
has
risen from nothing to over 800 in about a year. The thing is, evaluation is
rather subjective. An Auckland secondary school group(St Cuthberts)for a
science project studied me for three months and gave me 87%. Others have
said 75-80%. Only one group for some reason seem to find my accuracy is low
level - meteorologists. It all comes down to what someone calls a dry or
wet
day. I don't even like to identify days, only trends or 3-4 day windows. If
it comes down to a day then I ask for a 24hr potential error, which still
ends up as a 3-4 day window. This because I think in the past that was all
that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2
oclock
next friday! That's why I try to steer people toward my isobaric maps,
which
is what I first arrive at in my calculations. After that it comes down to
interpretation. When I say maps I mean those from the past that I come up
with and can point to and say will probably repeat on a given future day.
cheers
Ken
www.predictweather.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:45 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


> ken,
>
> i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you been
> getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks obs.
> whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked,
thats
> dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot on
> the internet.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > David
> > First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
> anymore.
> > Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer
about
> > 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
> rather
> > not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not the
> > regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of days
> > ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in 1998,
out
> > of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> > forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the 23rd
on
> > this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between
27-29,
> > clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who would
> find
> > that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then there
> would
> > be others who would rush to random number generators in order to
satisfy
> > themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have to
> > convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described it
for
> > anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
> >
> > As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the
trouble
> to
> > read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the theory
of
> > lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we can
> get
> > into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement
critics
> > are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise
themselves
> > with where I am coming from, but because they think they are scientists
> they
> > assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this is
> > left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from Copernicus
> down.
> > In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> > Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were
the
> > founding fathers of modern science - all would have described
themselves
> as
> > astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there should
be
> > always room for new approaches and reform.
> >
> > I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist, whatever
that
> > is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology
can
> > adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> > astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years, watching
the
> > moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the
subject
> > makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> > unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who
hasn't
> > read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data that
> > related to the moon.
> >
> > After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> > rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the Nodal
> Cycle,
> > the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does, nor
is
> > phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
> behaviour
> > other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet, completely
> > cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
> >
> > I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on
'profound',
> as
> > interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I say
> dry
> > and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was a
dry
> > day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for
someone
> > then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to accept
re
> > August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before
passing
> > judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make
mistakes -
> > that's how we learn.
> >
> > It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over me
in
> > that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical
data
> and
> > multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and have
to
> > earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
> through
> > the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me
and
> > it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers
from
> > the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more fantastic.
> > best wishes
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> > Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> > Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> >
> >
> > > Ken,
> > >
> > > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken
seriously,
> > can
> > > you please explain.
> > >
> > > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the phase
of
> > the
> > > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> > prediction
> > > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this year
> that
> > > leads you to believe that the August through November period should
only
> > get
> > > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
> driest
> > > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such
period
> on
> > > record.
> > >
> > > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently
enduring
> > > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good scientific
> > theory
> > > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr David Jones
> > >
> > > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > > National Climate Centre
> > > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:14:24 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Ken...

"Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me."

This is the crux of it.  Reverse is negative forward motion, true.  But
there is no such thing as negative heat or negative pressure.  Zero pressure
is a vacuum, you can't get less than that.  Zero heat is absolute zero, and
you can't get less heat than that.  There is no such thing as negative
excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).  But as we all know,
you can always go faster in either direction when it comes to motion.  We
have minus signs on the Celcius and farenheit temperature scales merely as a
result of the adoption of a convenient reference point, the freezing point
of water in the case of Celcius.

Regards,
John.

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:48 AM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


Hi again Richard
The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3 are
the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an emprical
sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity, despite
what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather models!
So everything may have to be redefined..
best
Ken



----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> hi ken,
>
> both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off topic
> people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
like
> a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to describe
> less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
hot,
> heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
there
> is
> > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the very
> > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
think
> > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
to
> > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> been
> > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> seems
> > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature we
> > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that powers
> the
> > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > cornwell.
> > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
under
> > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> valve
> > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
the
> > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
the
> > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
in
> > the
> > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as atmospheric
> > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum pressure
> > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > operated
> > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > considered
> > > a
> > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
just
> > as
> > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
reverse
> > > gear
> > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
gearing?
> > > > ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum, just
a
> > lack
> > > > of
> > > > > pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > richard modistach
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific thought,
> > which
> > > > has
> > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is that
> Cold
> > > is
> > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
object
> > > it's
> > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There is
> in
> > > fact
> > > > > no
> > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat ~
> > which
> > > > one
> > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > substance
> > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Ring
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look
> for
> > > > where
> > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> name
> > > it.
> > > > I
> > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> somewhere.
> > > Nor
> > > > > can
> > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > arguably
> > > > > even
> > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
with
> > the
> > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
all
> > due
> > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
those
> > > books
> > > > > has
> > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon
> has
> > a
> > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
Balling(Arizona
> > > State
> > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> temps.
> > > > Temps
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon
> and
> > > > > coolest
> > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
200
> > > > synodic
> > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of
> the
> > > moon
> > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > Significant
> > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also
> > heats
> > > > the
> > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
found
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This
> > range
> > > of
> > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> whole.
> > It
> > > > > shows
> > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon
> but
> > > the
> > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters
> > > Earth's
> > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > radiation.
> > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
source
> > > refs
> > > > I
> > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> whether
> > or
> > > > not
> > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> gets
> > > > colder
> > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
body
> of
> > > > your
> > > > > >  message.
> > > > >
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> > > your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 2002-07-24

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: full moon
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:22:42 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Ken,

I was not saying that clouds only occur on about 12 days per month, I was
saying that 60% of the time (18 days per month), clouds tend to dissipate at
sunset.  The  other times there is either no clouds to begin with or there
is cloud which remains after sundown.  In SEQ we would have clouds on around
90% of days throughout a year with a distinct drop during the winter/spring
months and a peak in summer/autumn, when it is rare to have a cloud free
day.

But you are right, a gut feel is not the same as hard figures, so recording
is now in progress.  Yesterday was 1/8 average cloud cover during the day,
and 0/8 at midnight (close to Q3 as you know).  And indeed the afternoon
cloud (low scattered Cu) dissipated at sunset.

Regards,
John.
>snip
-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 7:56 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: full moon


John
It is great to get your opinion. However, empirical obs is better. It may be
true where you are that 60% of nights are clearer but I suggest that figures
would make for better discussion. With figures one can discuss why they have
occurred - but with opinions less easy to discuss why they occurred. 60% -
is that high? Not too much over half. You are saying cloud occurs on about
12 days per month.
As to noticeability of clouds with or without a full moon, this whole
discussion started as an obs that full moon nights are noticeably very cold.
That implies no clouds, because clouds hold in the day's heat.
As to noting cloud cover at night in your diary, I would commend that and
suggest that where you are in SEQ between August 6-9 you can mark C for
cloudy over night, possible rain as well. If I am right it should add some
cred to lunar forecasting, because that could be 3 correct out of just those
12.
best wishes
Ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 11:49 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: full moon


> I would have to say that as a general observation, it is usually much
> clearer at night than during the day.  In SEQ you can often watch the
clouds
> dissipate at sunset to leave a clear night and early morning, before
clouds
> again appear from about mid-morning onwards.  This phenomena is easily
> explainable in terms of solar heating & convection.  This would occur on
at
> least 60% of all days in SEQ in my estimation.
>
> I think it is also true to say that on a moonless night presence of clouds
> is usually not very noticeable, whereas clouds drifting across a full moon
> (or just a full moon with no clouds) is rather more noticeable.
>
> A moonlit night clearly implies no clouds, which correspondingly implies a
> colder night, thus frost is more likely.  So the last two folklore adages
> are IMHO self evident observations.
>
> With all due respect Ken, there is no point looking outside on full moon
> nights only, without also looking outside on all other nights to have
> someting to compare against.  I have only noted average daily cloud cover
in
> my observations notebook to date ~ which relates only to daytime hours,
but
> I will add in another column for cloud cover at midnight, and see how we
go
> over the next couple of years.
>
> John.
> >snip
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:34 PM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: full moon
>
>
> I can see that expectancy might play a part here. Best would be to look up
> what nights in the future the next full moons are going to be occurring
and
> circle them in the diary. Then go outside and see if you can see it on
those
> nights. (Easy to locate: full moon on the day of the full moon is exactly
> north at midnight. Or, if you're in the northern hemisphere, always
exactly
> south at midnight). That would eliminate the "sticking in the head" thing.
> But "moon eating clouds" is not the only reference in folklore. There's
also
> these:
> "The full moon grows fat on clouds".(Nautical)
> "The weather is generally clearer at the full than at other stages of the
> moon, but in winter the frost then is sometimes more intense."(Bacon)
> "Moonlit nights have the hardest frosts."
> "Clear moon: frost soon"(Scotland)
> Ken
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Goler" <Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 5:16 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: full moon
>
>
> > On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Ken Ring wrote:
> >
> > > The evidence is that Full
> > > moon nights are mostly clearer whereas New moon nights are mostly
> > > cloudier.  if you look up any old weather folklore book you will find
a
> > > common old mariners' saying that "the full moon eats clouds" so I'd
say
> > > the effect has been noticed for yonks.
> >
> > Are there actual numbers to these statements, ie number of clear days
> > during full moon compared with new moon???
> >
> > Speaking for myself here, a clear night with a full moon always sticks
in
> > my head more so than a clear night without the moon.  Perhaps the
> > mariner's statement above is based more on a selective psychological
> > interpretation.  I mean who mentions anything about a clear sky with
just
> > stars (besides astronomers), eg lets see how many Victorians/NSW notice
> > the clear night tonight with the New Moon around the corner.  But put a
> > Full Moon in the scene 2 weeks later, and I'm sure people will notice
how
> > clear the night will be (provided there's a high sitting over them at
the
> > time).  And so, the conclusion that the moon clears skies will naturally
> > be arrived at.
> >
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > --
> >
> > Robert A. Goler
> >
> > School of Mathematical Sciences
> > PO Box 28M
> > Monash University
> > Clayton, Vic 3800
> > Australia
> >
> > ph. +61 3 9905 4424
> > email: Robert.Goler at maths.monash.edu.au
> > http://www.maths.monash.edu.au/~robert/
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 2002-07-24
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 2002-07-24

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Craig Arthur" <craig_arthur at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 09:49:01 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com



John,

<snip>
Zero heat is absolute zero, and you can't get less heat than that.  There
is no such thing as negative
excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).
<end snip>
Zero temperature is absolute zero i.e. 0 Kelvin. Heat is the energy which
flows between a system and it's environment due to a temperature difference
between the two.

The level of excitation of molecules only impacts on the temperature of a
body, not the heat.
A body at absolute zero would be a sink for heat, as it can only increase
its internal energy, but anything not at 0K can increase or decrease (i.e.
positive or negative changes) its heat content (again different from heat).

Be very careful about using heat and temperature. They are closely related,
but they are different physical quantities.

Craig


-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of John
Woodbridge
Sent: Thursday, 1 August 2002 09:14
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


Hi Ken...

"Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me."

This is the crux of it.  Reverse is negative forward motion, true.  But
there is no such thing as negative heat or negative pressure.  Zero
pressure
is a vacuum, you can't get less than that.  Zero heat is absolute zero, and
you can't get less heat than that.  There is no such thing as negative
excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).  But as we all
know,
you can always go faster in either direction when it comes to motion.  We
have minus signs on the Celcius and farenheit temperature scales merely as
a
result of the adoption of a convenient reference point, the freezing point
of water in the case of Celcius.

Regards,
John.

-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:48 AM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


Hi again Richard
The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3 are
the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and
reverse,
to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an emprical
sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity,
despite
what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather models!
So everything may have to be redefined..
best
Ken



----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> hi ken,
>
> both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off
topic
> people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
like
> a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to
describe
> less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
hot,
> heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
there
> is
> > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the very
> > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
think
> > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
to
> > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> been
> > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> seems
> > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature we
> > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that
powers
> the
> > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > cornwell.
> > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
under
> > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> valve
> > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
the
> > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
the
> > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
in
> > the
> > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as atmospheric
> > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum pressure
> > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > operated
> > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > considered
> > > a
> > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
just
> > as
> > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
reverse
> > > gear
> > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
gearing?
> > > > ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum, just
a
> > lack
> > > > of
> > > > > pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > richard modistach
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific
thought,
> > which
> > > > has
> > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is that
> Cold
> > > is
> > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
object
> > > it's
> > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There
is
> in
> > > fact
> > > > > no
> > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat ~
> > which
> > > > one
> > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > substance
> > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Ring
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look
> for
> > > > where
> > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> name
> > > it.
> > > > I
> > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> somewhere.
> > > Nor
> > > > > can
> > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > arguably
> > > > > even
> > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
with
> > the
> > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
all
> > due
> > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
those
> > > books
> > > > > has
> > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon
> has
> > a
> > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
Balling(Arizona
> > > State
> > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> temps.
> > > > Temps
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon
> and
> > > > > coolest
> > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
200
> > > > synodic
> > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of
> the
> > > moon
> > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > Significant
> > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also
> > heats
> > > > the
> > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
found
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This
> > range
> > > of
> > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> whole.
> > It
> > > > > shows
> > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon
> but
> > > the
> > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon
enters
> > > Earth's
> > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > radiation.
> > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
source
> > > refs
> > > > I
> > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> whether
> > or
> > > > not
> > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> gets
> > > > colder
> > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
body
> of
> > > > your
> > > > > >  message.
> > > > >
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> > > your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 2002-07-24

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:21:42 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Richard
I am satisfied with my hit rate, as must be others as my free ezine list has
risen from nothing to over 800 in about a year. The thing is, evaluation is
rather subjective. An Auckland secondary school group(St Cuthberts)for a
science project studied me for three months and gave me 87%. Others have
said 75-80%. Only one group for some reason seem to find my accuracy is low
level - meteorologists. It all comes down to what someone calls a dry or wet
day. I don't even like to identify days, only trends or 3-4 day windows. If
it comes down to a day then I ask for a 24hr potential error, which still
ends up as a 3-4 day window. This because I think in the past that was all
that was required. People wanted to know if they had a storm coming this
week, or a run of good weather. They didn't have to be somewhere at 2 oclock
next friday! That's why I try to steer people toward my isobaric maps, which
is what I first arrive at in my calculations. After that it comes down to
interpretation. When I say maps I mean those from the past that I come up
with and can point to and say will probably repeat on a given future day.
cheers
Ken
www.predictweather.com


----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:45 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.


> ken,
>
> i admire your get up and go to LRF, what sort of hit rate have you been
> getting? and is your hit rate improving with time? $70 for 1 weeks obs.
> whoever plucked that figure out of their backside need to be sacked, thats
> dispicable. makes me want to buy 20 years worth and post the whole lot on
> the internet.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 4:13 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
>
>
> > David
> > First of all, it doesn't matter to me if I'm taken seriously or not
> anymore.
> > Enough farmers etc are buying my books and keeping me busy. I answer
about
> > 20-30 email requests per day for forecasts and quite frankly I would
> rather
> > not, but it seems there is no where else that will provide it. Not the
> > regular metservices, as I'm told, for anything beyond a couple of days
> > ahead, and according to a Herald Digipoll taken in my country in 1998,
out
> > of 663 people questioned, only 37% had any faith in the official
> > forecasters, which is rather sad. But you will notice that on the 23rd
on
> > this forum I forecast shower activity for Sydney and Perth between
27-29,
> > clearing by 30th, with a 24hr potential error. There are some who would
> find
> > that useful but others who would find it something amusing. Then there
> would
> > be others who would rush to random number generators in order to satisfy
> > themselves that I had nothing of value. The point is, I don't have to
> > convince anybody of anything. The system is there, I have described it
for
> > anyone interested and they can take it or leave it.
> >
> > As to your next point, with respect, I would rather you took the trouble
> to
> > read what's on my website, so you familiarise yourself with the theory
of
> > lunar forecasting before I spend hours explaining it. After that we can
> get
> > into a discussion over the finer points. I find the most vehement
critics
> > are those who won't bother even looking into it to familiarise
themselves
> > with where I am coming from, but because they think they are scientists
> they
> > assume they must be qualified to comment on anything. I realise this is
> > left-field, but so have been all the science mavericks from Copernicus
> down.
> > In fact Galileo, Newton, Franklin, Kepler, Copernicus, Laplace, even
> > Flamstead who started the Greenwich Royal Observatory, -men who were the
> > founding fathers of modern science - all would have described themselves
> as
> > astrologers. There is nothing wrong with the unusual and there should be
> > always room for new approaches and reform.
> >
> > I get challenged because I am not a qualified meteorologist, whatever
that
> > is. But I have never claimed to be one and I don't think meteorology can
> > adequately explain weather, which I put down to a mix of maths and
> > astronomy. But I do think studying this subject for 27 years, watching
the
> > moon correlate with weather daily and writing about 8 books on the
subject
> > makes me somewhat qualified to have an idea or two. It would be an
> > unreasonable to expect me to discuss this subject with someone who
hasn't
> > read anything, written anything nor empirically collected any data that
> > related to the moon.
> >
> > After reading my articles you will see that my thoughts are that our
> > rainfall varies from year to year because of a thing called the Nodal
> Cycle,
> > the phase of the moon is a very small part of what the moon does, nor is
> > phase even constant, and there is nothing special about the moon's
> behaviour
> > other than that it is, like the sun and every other planet, completely
> > cyclic, and as, I have discovered, is the weather.
> >
> > I do think my explanation is detailed, but I can't comment on
'profound',
> as
> > interpretation is almost certainly in the eye of the beholder. If I say
> dry
> > and it rains overnight but is a sunny day, one person may say it was a
dry
> > day and another a wet one. The thing is, if the system works for someone
> > then it's a worthy one. You clearly find my conclusions hard to accept
re
> > August rainfall. I suggest we wait until the month is over before
passing
> > judgement. If I was way out I'll stand corrected. We all make mistakes -
> > that's how we learn.
> >
> > It seems you are part of the BoM. You have a complete advantage over me
in
> > that you are paid to do research and have free access to historical data
> and
> > multimillion dollar equipment. . I'm not. I have no resources and have
to
> > earn a living doing something else. If I want any obs I have to pay
> through
> > the absolute nose for it. Like $70 for a week's worth. They screw me and
> > it's not right, in my opinion. So I have to rely a lot on newspapers
from
> > the past. That makes any success that I achieve all the more fantastic.
> > best wishes
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > To: <aussie-weather-digest at world.std.com>
> > Cc: "David Jones" <D.Jones at bom.gov.au>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:58 AM
> > Subject: aus-wx: lunar forecasts.
> >
> >
> > > Ken,
> > >
> > > If you and your non-conventional predictions want to be taken
seriously,
> > can
> > > you please explain.
> > >
> > > Why, does our rainfall vary from year to year?, given that the phase
of
> > the
> > > moon is a completely regular occurrence, and accordingly to your
> > prediction
> > > dominant. And, what is so special about the moon's behavior this year
> that
> > > leads you to believe that the August through November period should
only
> > get
> > > ~110mm of rain in Sydney, an amount that would place it within the
> driest
> > > 10% of historical observations, and not far from the driest such
period
> on
> > > record.
> > >
> > > Given the shear desperation of many rural producers currently enduring
> > > drought in eastern Australia, I trust you have a very good scientific
> > theory
> > > to back your profound and detailed predictions.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > Dr David Jones
> > >
> > > Head Climate Analysis Section
> > > National Climate Centre
> > > Bureau of Meteorology         Fax : (+61 3) 9669 4678
> > > GPO Box 1289K, Melbourne Ph (work): (+61 3) 9669 4085
> > > Victoria 3001, Australia Ph (home): (+61 3) 9755 1923
> > > email : D.Jones at bom.gov.au
> > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:47:52 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi again Richard
The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3 are
the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an emprical
sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity, despite
what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather models!
So everything may have to be redefined..
best
Ken



----- Original Message -----
From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> hi ken,
>
> both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off topic
> people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
like
> a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to describe
> less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
hot,
> heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
>
> regards
> richard modistach
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
there
> is
> > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the very
> > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
think
> > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
to
> > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> been
> > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> seems
> > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature we
> > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > Ken
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that powers
> the
> > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > cornwell.
> > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
under
> > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> valve
> > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
the
> > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
the
> > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
in
> > the
> > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as atmospheric
> > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum pressure
> > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > operated
> > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > richard modistach
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > considered
> > > a
> > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
just
> > as
> > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
reverse
> > > gear
> > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
gearing?
> > > > ken
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum, just
a
> > lack
> > > > of
> > > > > pressure.
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > richard modistach
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific thought,
> > which
> > > > has
> > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is that
> Cold
> > > is
> > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
object
> > > it's
> > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There is
> in
> > > fact
> > > > > no
> > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat ~
> > which
> > > > one
> > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > substance
> > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> Ring
> > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We look
> for
> > > > where
> > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> name
> > > it.
> > > > I
> > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> somewhere.
> > > Nor
> > > > > can
> > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > arguably
> > > > > even
> > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
with
> > the
> > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
all
> > due
> > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
those
> > > books
> > > > > has
> > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full moon
> has
> > a
> > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
Balling(Arizona
> > > State
> > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> temps.
> > > > Temps
> > > > > in
> > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full moon
> and
> > > > > coolest
> > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
200
> > > > synodic
> > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase of
> the
> > > moon
> > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > Significant
> > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon also
> > heats
> > > > the
> > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
found
> > that
> > > > the
> > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month. This
> > range
> > > of
> > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> whole.
> > It
> > > > > shows
> > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full moon
> but
> > > the
> > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon enters
> > > Earth's
> > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > radiation.
> > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
source
> > > refs
> > > > I
> > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> whether
> > or
> > > > not
> > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> gets
> > > > colder
> > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > Ken
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
body
> of
> > > > your
> > > > > >  message.
> > > > >
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> > > your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Clyve Herbert" <mesof5 at iprimus.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: FUNNEL CLOUDS
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:07:47 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 01:09:35.0204 (UTC) FILETIME=[19951240:01C238F8]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META content="MSHTML 5.00.2722.2800" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>hi Arky.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some of the more dangerous tornadoes I have seen on 
video&nbsp; had no visible funnels at certain stages in their development, some 
rating as high as f 2, here in Australia I have also seen photo's of tornadoes 
with no visible condensation funnel.If the ground is rather dry then the first 
signs of touch down is dust&nbsp;or light ground material being visible, if 
there is enough dust the tornado can become very visible, but instead of the 
visible tube extending from the cloud there is an appearance of the tornado 
growing from the ground up to the cloud base, if the ground is rather moist then 
the funnel may remain almost invisible if a condensation funnel does not 
develop. One of the best severe weather books available is titled Spacious Skys 
by A Verkaik and R Scorer although out of print you may be able to pick up a 
copy 2nd hand or a left over in a book shop somewhere. regards Clyve 
Herbert.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>PS At the opposite end of the scale in regards to 
condensation funnels I have seen video of a tornado producing a condensation 
funnel from cloud base to ground in just over one second!.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE 
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net" title=dajapo at voltage.net>arky dave</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com" 
  title=aussie-weather at world.std.com>aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, July 31, 2002 4:33 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: FUNNEL CLOUDS</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>G'Winter to All:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  My question would be: Would non-ground contacting funnel clouds produce much 
  damage? I ask this due to the fact I heard the funnels that hit Mena on NOV. 
  13, 1993, never actually touched the ground. I myself didn't ever see the 
  funnels(2 of them). From looking/piccing the damage in town, it it hard for me 
  to believe that they stayed aloft. </FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  Hopefully, SOON, I will get help to get a link constructed so my weather pics 
  can be viewed.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>WARM thoughts for 
  ALL!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  Yours&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
  Powell</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:10:34 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Richard
Yes, i know, and i hope you don't think I'm arguing just for the sake of it.
But I think there IS negative heat and negative pressure, that which we call
COLD and vacuum. Perhaps the trouble is in the reference line, which is
largely based on our own experience of our physical senses. For example,
what would a polar bear call hot? Probably zero degrees! If instead of
setting the useful base point at our own idea of zero we set it midway we
could then come closer to labelling cold as a force and not just defining it
as the absence of its opposite. What do you reckon?
ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1


> Hi Ken...
>
> "Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and reverse,
> to me."
>
> This is the crux of it.  Reverse is negative forward motion, true.  But
> there is no such thing as negative heat or negative pressure.  Zero
pressure
> is a vacuum, you can't get less than that.  Zero heat is absolute zero,
and
> you can't get less heat than that.  There is no such thing as negative
> excitation of molecules (that we know about at anyway).  But as we all
know,
> you can always go faster in either direction when it comes to motion.  We
> have minus signs on the Celcius and farenheit temperature scales merely as
a
> result of the adoption of a convenient reference point, the freezing point
> of water in the case of Celcius.
>
> Regards,
> John.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken Ring
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 10:48 AM
> To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> Hi again Richard
> The trouble is, I think in terms of maths. That's why, to me, +3 and -3
are
> the same but viewed from different angles. One could say the sign tells
> something about the operator whilst the value tells something about the
> result. Heat and cold are like pressure and vacuum and forwards and
reverse,
> to me. When it comes to relative terms like "hot"we are dealing less with
> science and more with subjectivity, which is not very useful in an
emprical
> sense. But isn't this discussion of heat also subjective? Why pick on the
> excitation of molecules and say that above a certain arbitrary line the
> excitation is valid but below it isn't? It seems to me that if one wanted
> to, one can talk of zero or negative excitation with equal validity,
despite
> what "current science" dictates. You see, I have no truck with a current
> science that chooses to factor out the moon in all computer weather
models!
> So everything may have to be redefined..
> best
> Ken
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 2:26 AM
> Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
>
>
> > hi ken,
> >
> > both with heat and pressure the bottom line is energy, the more heat or
> > pressure, the more energy is stored up, and if this sounds a tad off
topic
> > people then remember that what has been discussed here relates to
> > atmospherics and the weather, by defalt not by design, lol. technically
> like
> > a vaccuum there is no cold, it's simply a relative term we use to
describe
> > less heat starting with no heat at 0K. by the way, dont mix up heat and
> hot,
> > heat is an absolute term, hot is relative.
> >
> > regards
> > richard modistach
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 2:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> >
> >
> > > Thanks Richard, I stand corrected. I suppose wherever there is pull
> there
> > is
> > > also push on the opposite side of the paradime. But isn't that the
very
> > > point? Can you have heat without cold in the same equation? i don't
> think
> > > so. Isn't it yin and yang? Surely it all depends on selective focus as
> to
> > > what is being described. Perhaps the difficulty has been that heat has
> > been
> > > more the focus of science because humans prefer being warm, and so it
> > seems
> > > to be more of a valid concept to define. When we talk of temperature
we
> > > think immediately of heat. What do you reckon?
> > > Ken
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:52 AM
> > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > >
> > >
> > > > wrong ken, it's the atmospheric pressure on the other side that
powers
> > the
> > > > pump like the cornish beam engines that used to pump the mines in
> > > cornwell.
> > > > they worked on steam but not like a locomotive where the stean is
> under
> > > > pressure, the piston drew the steam from a boiler into a cylinder, a
> > valve
> > > > was closed and cold water was sprayed into the cylinder to condence
> the
> > > > steam which created a drop in pressure, the atmospheric pressure on
> the
> > > > outside then pushed on the piston pushing it back down ready to draw
> in
> > > the
> > > > next charge of steam, these types of engines are known as
atmospheric
> > > > engines and were limited in their performance by the maximum
pressure
> > > > obtainable being a14.7psi or 1 atmosphere whereas steam locomotives
> > > operated
> > > > around 15-20 atm.s of pressure from the inside.
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > > richard modistach
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Ken Ring <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
> > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:21 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > But a vacuum can power a pump..to my way of thinking it can be
> > > considered
> > > > a
> > > > > force? Negative numbers can be computed in mathematics and behave
> just
> > > as
> > > > > positive numbers do, only with different signs. Are you saying
> reverse
> > > > gear
> > > > > in a car is not really a gear but just a depletion of forward
> gearing?
> > > > > ken
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "richard modistach" <hambone at dodo.com.au>
> > > > > To: "weather mailing list" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 8:23 PM
> > > > > Subject: Fw: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > that;'s right john, like there's no such thing as a vaccuum,
just
> a
> > > lack
> > > > > of
> > > > > > pressure.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
> > > > > > richard modistach
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: John Woodbridge <jrw at pixelcom.net>
> > > > > > To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 11:12 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Ken,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I would just like to point out that accepted scientific
thought,
> > > which
> > > > > has
> > > > > > > been shown many times over with simple experimentation, is
that
> > Cold
> > > > is
> > > > > > > merely absence of Heat.  If you take ALL the heat out of an
> object
> > > > it's
> > > > > > > temperature drops to absolue zero, i.e, -273C.  or 0K.  There
is
> > in
> > > > fact
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > > such thing as Cold as physical entity, only more or less Heat
~
> > > which
> > > > > one
> > > > > > > may define as the level of excitation of molecules within a
> > > substance
> > > > > > > (solid, liquid or gas).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > John W.
> > > > > > > >sbip
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
> > > > > > > [mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Ken
> > Ring
> > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 11:19 AM
> > > > > > > To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: aus-wx: It's Freezing!!!!!!1
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi Craig and all
> > > > > > > I think as humans we are source-driven in our thinking. We
look
> > for
> > > > > where
> > > > > > > things like air comes from, also life, love, the universe, you
> > name
> > > > it.
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > would say cold is another concept which has to come from
> > somewhere.
> > > > Nor
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > it come from the absence of something else - cold is real and
> > > arguably
> > > > > > even
> > > > > > > more visible in its effects than heat. Freezers are designed
> with
> > > the
> > > > > > > direction in mind that cold travels.
> > > > > > > Most texts on meteorology don't even mention the moon, so with
> all
> > > due
> > > > > > > respect to any authors of those, I don't think referring to
> those
> > > > books
> > > > > > has
> > > > > > > much to contribute to this discussion.
> > > > > > > Work HAS been done by NASA and others which shows the Full
moon
> > has
> > > a
> > > > > > > heating effect on the earth. For example, in 1995
> Balling(Arizona
> > > > State
> > > > > > > University) found an influence of moon phase on daily global
> > temps.
> > > > > Temps
> > > > > > in
> > > > > > > the lower troposphere are warmest 5-8 days before the Full
moon
> > and
> > > > > > coolest
> > > > > > > during New moon. During a period of nearly 5934 days(more than
> 200
> > > > > synodic
> > > > > > > cycles) between 1979 and the early months of 1995, the phase
of
> > the
> > > > moon
> > > > > > > accounted for a global variation in temp of 0.02-0.03degC.
> > > Significant
> > > > > > > enough to alter weather. The same team found that the moon
also
> > > heats
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > earth's poles. Using 17 years of satellite temp. data, they
> found
> > > that
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > poles show a temp. range of 0.55degC during a lunar month.
This
> > > range
> > > > of
> > > > > > > temperature is 25x greater than for global temperatures as a
> > whole.
> > > It
> > > > > > shows
> > > > > > > that there is a strong poleward transfer of heat near Full
moon
> > but
> > > > the
> > > > > > > transfer waekens near new moon. After Full moon, the moon
enters
> > > > Earth's
> > > > > > > magnetic tail, and there begins more interference with cosmic
> > > > radiation.
> > > > > > > All this work is available on the internet. If anyone wants
> source
> > > > refs
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > can provide them. And there could be two discussions here -
> > whether
> > > or
> > > > > not
> > > > > > > it gets colder at night over a full moon and whether or not it
> > gets
> > > > > colder
> > > > > > > over a 24 hour period.
> > > > > > > cheers
> > > > > > > Ken
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
> body
> > of
> > > > > your
> > > > > > >  message.
> > > > > >
> > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the
body
> of
> > > > your
> > > > > >  message.
> > > > >
> >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body
of
> > > your
> > > > >  message.
> > > >
>
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> > to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> > your
> > > >  message.
> > >
>   -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> > >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
> > >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
> > >  message.
> >
  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> > >
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.380 / Virus Database: 213 - Release Date: 2002-07-24
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "Damian" <damoreds at optusnet.com.au>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: July averages
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 12:53:56 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080>For my back garden in 
Sydney's Northern suburbs I recorded an average July&nbsp;maximum temperature of 
17.3 degrees.&nbsp;</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080>Average July minimum 
temperature of 2.7 degrees &amp; 21.35 mm of rain.</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080>Check out the day to day 
statistics at:</FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" color=#000080><A 
href="http://www.geocities.com/weatherdamo/index.html">http://www.geocities.com/weatherdamo/index.html</A></FONT></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><FONT face="Courier New" 
color=#000080></FONT></STRONG>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Chas & Helen Osborn" <hosborn at tassie.net.au>
To: "Aussie weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Strahan Weather
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:05:41 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Everyone</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rainfall for July is a Strahan&nbsp;record, 350mm 
about twice the average 180mm.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>David</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Visible flight rules minimum visibility in 
Australia is 5000m so visibility greater than 10km is of little 
concern.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Other countries have lower minimum visibility for 
visual flight eg Canada but I cannot remember what it is.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>With lower than 5000m visibility you must be 
capable of flying by instruments and carry the fuel required if flight to 
alternate aerodromes is required.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Chas</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Strahan Tasmania</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

X-Originating-IP: [152.91.9.49]
From: "michael king" <mskikey at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:00:04 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 05:00:05.0219 (UTC) FILETIME=[4CE9E330:01C23918]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
<P><A href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate, here's a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></div><br clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a href='http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENAU/c152??PI=44314'>Click Here</a><br></html>
 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-html>
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 13:49:40 +0800
From: "Phil Smith" <SmithP at ics.edu.hk>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
X-Mailer: WorldClient 6.0.3
X-MDRemoteIP: 192.168.0.2
X-Return-Path: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Good story.
So do you suppose some wag will suggest that Babinda should erect an 
eight metre golden brolly?

Phil
<><

International Christian School E-mail: SmithP at ics.edu.hk
Doctor Disk Limited E-mail: phil at drdisk.com.hk
Web-site: http://www.drdisk.com.hk
Weather: http://www.drdisk.com.hk/cyclones.htm



-----Original Message-----
From: "michael king" <mskikey at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:00:04 +1000
Subject: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate

> <html><div style='background-color:'><DIV>
> <P><A
> href="http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s635090.htm">http://abc.net.au/n
> ews/newsitems/s635090.htm</A><BR><BR></P></DIV>
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV></DIV>
> <DIV>in case anyone is as interested as i am in this on going debate,
> here's a link to a recent story on the ABC web site.</DIV></div><br
> clear=all><hr>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: <a
> href='http://g.msn.com/1HM1ENAU/c152??PI=44314'>Click
> Here</a><br></html>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
> +
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail
> to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of
> your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au-----------------------------
> -

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "arky dave" <dajapo at voltage.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 00:51:29 -0500
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As 
earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE newspaper. The 
world temps. are forecasts. Today,(Wednesday, July 31)&nbsp;the forecast for 
Auckland, NZ was partly cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW of 47F(8.3C). for Sydney, 
AUS was partly cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW of 48F(8.8C), for Hong Kong was 
thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW of 78F(25.5C).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial 
size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My question is: 
Just where do these&nbsp;forecast&nbsp;figures come from? Do these figures come 
from ya'll or are they forecasted from the US? To simplify, who generates these 
forecast numbers?(how do they get into our newspaper?)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just 
wondering&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
G'DAY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:07:17 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


> 
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> 
> ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C238F5.927B6AE0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> 	charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:
>          As earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE =
> newspaper. The world temps. are forecasts. Today,(Wednesday, July 31) =
> the forecast for Auckland, NZ was partly cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW =
> of 47F(8.3C). for Sydney, AUS was partly cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW =
> of 48F(8.8C), for Hong Kong was thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW =
> of 78F(25.5C).
>           My question is: Just where do these forecast figures come =
> from? Do these figures come from ya'll or are they forecasted from the =
> US? To simplify, who generates these forecast numbers?(how do they get =
> into our newspaper?)

They're almost certainly from a US-based provider, probably based
on model output. These are better than they once were - you used to
see some which were downright embarrassing (I recall once seeing
one which forecast a max of 4 for Canberra in December) - but still
prone to inaccuracies, especially in areas where the grid which
the forecast is based on is too coarse to pick up local climate
variations.

On my recent trip to Canada I noticed that the 'Globe and Mail' 
(the major national Canadian newspaper) was carrying 4-day forecasts
for a number of international centres, including Sydney. On a 
couple of days the forecast was for a minimum of -1 or -2 (this was
in the middle of the cold spell in mid-July). I'd guess that this
was a model forecast for a 'Sydney basin' gridpoint (-1 or -2 would
have been realistic for a 'basin average' on the days when it was
getting down to -5 or -6 in the outer west, but was clearly extremely
unlikely for Observatory Hill).

Blair

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: "John Woodbridge" <jrw at pixelcom.net>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: RE: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:10:54 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0)
Importance: Normal
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Well...,

I just think the guy who used to fiddle the rainfall readings for Innisfail
has moved to Babinda.  Then again, maybe the guage is just a bit to
accessible to the boys staggering out of Babinda pub on a Staurday night...

John.
-----Original Message-----
From: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
[mailto:aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com]On Behalf Of Phil Smith
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:50 PM
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate


Good story.
So do you suppose some wag will suggest that Babinda should erect an
eight metre golden brolly?

Phil

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

From: Blair Trewin <blair at earthsci.unimelb.edu.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Re: aus-wx wettest town debate
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 16:42:38 +1000 (EST)
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.5 PL3]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


> 
> Well...,
> 
> I just think the guy who used to fiddle the rainfall readings for Innisfail
> has moved to Babinda.  Then again, maybe the guage is just a bit to
> accessible to the boys staggering out of Babinda pub on a Staurday night...
> 
> John.

From memory, which of Tully and Babinda is the wetter depends on 
averaging period (you get one answer if you use all years of record
and a different one if you use a standard 1961-90 normal).

Mind you, Bellenden Ker (and Topaz for that matter) leave both of 
them for dead.

I'm not going to lose too much sleep over this one (on the other
hand, if Cloncurry decides to erect a Big Thermometer then I might
have to go up there with a truck one night and relocate it to 
Oodnadatta where it belongs :-)

Blair
 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [203.221.136.103]
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 17:29:00 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 07:29:00.0721 (UTC) FILETIME=[1AE34A10:01C2392D]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi every1,

Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...

There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal energy 
as has already been noted)

Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to 
another

Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the AVERAGE 
kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can have 
gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)

Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative momentum 
changes on a surface.

Just my thoughts.

The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more 
knowledgeable people to debate...

Kevin from Wycheproof.




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Mr peter tristram" <peter.tri at bigpond.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Strahan Weather
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:34:18 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2716.2200" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Everyone</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Rainfall for July is a Strahan&nbsp;record, 350mm 
  about twice the average 180mm.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>... and the opposite applies as you go north! Not 
  a single drop at Repton (or Coffs Harbour I'd say) - 0mm since 15th June and 
  then there was only 5mm. Some cloud lately though and rising humidity so the 
  frosts have taken a hike. If it doesn't rain much before the 'hot' weather 
  arrives we'll need those firefighters back from the States and a few 
  planeloads of Arky's mates too!! The old timers reckon it's about as bad as it 
  gets up here. I think the Tweed is even worse off.</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peter</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Bussy" <bussie at netc.net.au>
To: "aussie-weather" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Lightning
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:53:36 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4134.100" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Some very weak flashes seen to the east of me and 
well away at 6.50pm. The clouds "puffed" up here the best I've seen for a long 
time, but not quite "puffy" enough :-( No rainfall as yet.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bussy (Rutherglen NE 
Victoria)</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

X-Sender: vk3jed-1 at 202.12.87.169
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 19:27:55 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: "Tony Langdon (VK3JED)" <vk3jed-1 at optushome.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Melbourne Sunset
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
At 11:38 PM 31/07/2002 +1000, you wrote:

>Evening all,
>
>A nice sunset in Melbourne tonight (a series of 5 images halfway down
>the page)
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com/winter02.htm

Very nice.  I had a spectacular sunset in the western suburbs, but still 
lacking a decent camera. :-(

73 de Tony, VK3JED
http://vk3jed.vk.irlp.net


</x-flowed>
From: "Michael Thompson" <thunder at ozthunder.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: WX SITE INFO
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 21:13:32 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-html>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2600.0" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Arky, I agree with Blair that these must be from 
a US provider using model data and no local knowledge.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I was considering putting up one of those weather 
banner things on my homepage, but the temperatures for my hometown of Wollongong 
in winter were always undercooked by 2 to 3C.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>For example today Sydney reached 21C, about 4C 
higher than the quoted figure.</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr 
style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV 
  style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> 
  <A title=dajapo at voltage.net href="mailto:dajapo at voltage.net">arky dave</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=aussie-weather at world.std.com 
  href="mailto:aussie-weather at world.std.com">aussie-weather at world.std.com</A> 
  </DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, August 01, 2002 3:51 
  PM</DIV>
  <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> aus-wx: WX SITE INFO</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello and Best Wishes to ALL:</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  As earlier stated, I subscribe to the ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE newspaper. The 
  world temps. are forecasts. Today,(Wednesday, July 31)&nbsp;the forecast for 
  Auckland, NZ was partly cloudy, HIGH of 56F(13.3C)LOW of 47F(8.3C). for 
  Sydney, AUS was partly cloudy, HIGH of 62F(16.6C) LOW of 48F(8.8C), for Hong 
  Kong was thundershowers, HIGH of 87F(30.5C) LOW of 78F(25.5C).</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial 
  size=2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My question is: 
  Just where do these&nbsp;forecast&nbsp;figures come from? Do these figures 
  come from ya'll or are they forecasted from the US? To simplify, who generates 
  these forecast numbers?(how do they get into our newspaper?)</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Just 
  wondering&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 
  G'DAY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; David 
Powell</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>


</x-html>

From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:56:24 +1200
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Hi Kevin and all
Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the bottom
of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics sites.
I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking about
heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the disagreement
is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of Thermodynamics
too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask Jeeves
and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.

1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If the
temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
(Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and cooling
have equal mathematical importance here..)

2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
(But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the rules
of English the cold did move too. No?).

3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as the
opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai which
just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean anything.
If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So not
much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the degree
of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
cheers
Ken


----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature


> Hi every1,
>
> Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
>
> There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal energy
> as has already been noted)
>
> Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> another
>
> Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
AVERAGE
> kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
have
> gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
>
> Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative momentum
> changes on a surface.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> knowledgeable people to debate...
>
> Kevin from Wycheproof.
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> http://www.hotmail.com
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
>

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Originating-IP: [203.220.168.243]
From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 21:56:40 +1000
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2002 11:56:40.0592 (UTC) FILETIME=[7F512100:01C23952]
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Hi all,

I wasn't gonna bother with this, since semantically it's picking gnat-shit 
out of pepper, but...

using a dictionary definition for a physical quantity is fraught with 
danger. If I look up heat in my dictionary I might also find that it means 
estrous etc... the term "heat" has been misused (even in the scientific 
community) for many years. It is a verb - it is the transfer of energy - any 
decent physics text will tell you so...

also...using ancient linguistic etymology is similarly fraught with peril. 
i.e. do you know the source of the word "lunatic"?

finally (for now), the fact that you don't like the laws of thermodynamics 
is neither here nor there. If for instance I decided that I didn't like 
Newton's Laws it wouldn't count one iota if I jumped off the top of the 
Rialto in defiance...if you have a serious problem with the physics offer an 
alternative set of precepts, don't just click your fingers and pretend to be 
invisible..

Kevin from Wycheproof (somewhere on THIS planet)


>From: "Ken Ring" <ken at weatherman.co.nz>
>Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Subject: Re: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:56:24 +1200
>
>Hi Kevin and all
>Am I the only Deluded One? Seems like I am! But I want to get to the bottom
>of this! So purely for my OWN satisfaction I did a search of physics sites.
>I found some interesting stuff, which indicates to me that in talking about
>heat and cold we could be all having a word quibble. Maybe the disagreement
>is just a loose definition. The trouble is, I did the Laws of 
>Thermodynamics
>too at school but was never fully happy with them. So I went on Ask Jeeves
>and asked about heating and cooling. Here's what I got.
>
>1. "When examining systems, scientists measure a number called the
>TEMPERATURE GRADIENT. It's the change in temperature divided by the
>distance. The units are degrees per centimeter. If the temperature is
>dropping over a specific distance, the gradient is a negative value. If the
>temperature goes up... Positive value. ."
>(Sounds to me from this statement that the writer thinks heating and 
>cooling
>have equal mathematical importance here..)
>
>2. "Warm air rises and cold air replaces it. The heat has moved.."
>(But then hasn't the cold also moved? Otherwise the heat couldn't have
>moved. And I always thought 'replaces' was a verb. Therefore, by the rules
>of English the cold did move too. No?).
>
>3. From the Dictionary of Etymology..the word "cold" comes from "gel"
>meaning to form a ball and to freeze. Derivations are many, amongst them
>chill, cloud, glacier, glue and globe. I think a definite reference to
>increase in viscosity is therefore implied, and so a definite movement
>between physical states(There is no reference to cold being defined as the
>opposite of heat). On the other hand, the word "heat" comes from kai which
>just means heat and hot. 'Transfer of thermal energy' doesn't mean 
>anything.
>If you look up 'thermal' you get 'gwher-' which just means..to heat! So not
>much help, just tautology. But look up "temperature" and it says 'the 
>degree
>of hotness or coldness of a body or environment. A specific degree or
>hotness or coldness as indicated on or referred to a standard scale.."
>So I have to say in my mind cold seems to still be its own man!
>cheers
>Ken
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Kevin Phyland" <kjphyland at hotmail.com>
>To: <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
>Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:29 PM
>Subject: aus-wx: Heat/Temperature
>
>
> > Hi every1,
> >
> > Unless all the laws of thermodynamics have been repealed...
> >
> > There is no such thing as negative heat (cold is absence of thermal 
>energy
> > as has already been noted)
> >
> > Heat is a VERB. It is the TRANSFER of thermal energy from one object to
> > another
> >
> > Temperature is a human devised variable which is proportional to the
>AVERAGE
> > kinetic energy of molecules in a substance (which explains why you can
>have
> > gaseous water (vapour) at room temperature)
> >
> > Negative pressure would imply that molecules are causing negative 
>momentum
> > changes on a surface.
> >
> > Just my thoughts.
> >
> > The obscure physics involving lunar wx forecasting I'll leave to more
> > knowledgeable people to debate...
> >
> > Kevin from Wycheproof.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
> >  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail 
>to:majordomo at world.std.com
> >  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of 
>your
> >  message.
> >  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------
> >
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------







_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: "Jane ONeill" <cadence at stormchasers.au.com>
To: "Aussie-wx" <aussie-weather at world.std.com>
Subject: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:07:55 +1000
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


Evening all,

Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....

Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!

Jane

--------------------------------
Jane ONeill - Melbourne
cadence at stormchasers.au.com

Melbourne Storm Chasers
http://www.stormchasers.au.com

ASWA - Victoria
http://www.severeweather.asn.au
--------------------------------






 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:24:16 +1000
From: Matthew Smith <tornado at cnn.net.au>
X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U)
X-Accept-Language: en
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


not just one flash? all 2 of them hey ? go melbourne storms in winter :P

Matt

Jane ONeill wrote:

> Evening all,
>
> Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
> not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
> Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
>
> Jane
>
> --------------------------------
> Jane ONeill - Melbourne
> cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
> Melbourne Storm Chasers
> http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
> ASWA - Victoria
> http://www.severeweather.asn.au
> --------------------------------
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

X-Sender: jdeguara at pop.ihug.com.au
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 22:25:15 +1000
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
From: Jimmy Deguara <jdeguara at ihug.com.au>
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Sender: aussie-weather-approval at world.std.com
Reply-To: aussie-weather at world.std.com


<x-flowed>
Perhaps hail??

Jimmy Deguara

At 10:07 PM 1/8/2002 +1000, you wrote:
>Evening all,
>
>Great excitement!!!  100mm/hr+++ over Melbourne - and green lightning -
>not just one flash...but **all** flashes seem to be green.....
>
>Any thoughts?? No they aren't power flashes!!!!
>
>Jane
>
>--------------------------------
>Jane ONeill - Melbourne
>cadence at stormchasers.au.com
>
>Melbourne Storm Chasers
>http://www.stormchasers.au.com
>
>ASWA - Victoria
>http://www.severeweather.asn.au
>--------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>  To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
>  with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
>  message.
>  -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------

-----------------------------------------
Jimmy Deguara
Storm Chaser and Mathematics Teacher

from
Schofields, Sydney
NSW Australia

e-mail:jdeguara at ihug.com.au

Web Page with Michael Bath

Australian Severe Weather Home Page
http://www.australiasevereweather.com

President of the Australian Severe Weather Association
http://www.severeweather.asn.au

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 To unsubscribe from aussie-weather send e-mail to:majordomo at world.std.com
 with "unsubscribe aussie-weather your_email_address" in the body of your
 message.
 -----------------------jacob at iinet.net.au------------------------------


</x-flowed>
From: David Findlay <david at davsoft.com.au>
Organization: Davsoft
To: aussie-weather at world.std.com
Subject: Re: aus-wx: Green lightning in Melbourne
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:29:14 +1000
User-Agent: KMail/1.4.2
X-Davsoft-MailScanner: Found to be clean
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by europe.std.com id IAA