Author Topic: 2008 US tornado season discussion  (Read 97844 times)

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Offline Peter J

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #45 on: 27 April 2008, 08:56:42 AM »
Nailed yesterday's target well with a tornado reported 5mi E of Snyder (Tx)....

Macca

Macca - i think you may have stumbled upon the tornado that my sister (who lives in Plano, Tx - which is NE of Dallas on the outskirts) felt the shockwave from. She reported that the house at her place shook for around a couple of minutes before the tornado warning sirens sounded across her area. She did say there was a tornado not far from her place - may well have been the Snyder storm.

Big Pete

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Offline Macca

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #46 on: 28 April 2008, 12:18:52 AM »
I think i'm going to target the area around Big Springs, Tx.   DPs should get into the mid 50's (possibly high 50's) with CAPE values up to around 2000j/kg. Shear isn't great but should improve LATE in the day but it should be enough to support supercells with hail to 2 inches possible.   ;D

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Offline Peter J

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #47 on: 28 April 2008, 02:16:20 PM »
Macca,

I observed some good cells forming between Abeline and Fort Worth, Tx. earlier today (melb time). May have been potential super-cells based on radar pics from accuweather.com

Big Pete

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Offline David C

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #48 on: 29 April 2008, 10:43:49 AM »
Had a look at the mid-term outlook over lunch. While it is far too early to start talking specifics, the H5 pattern alone looks supportive of a classic southern/central plains severe weather outbreak around May 1.

Global Ensembles Forecast is consistent with some impressive height falls during the period 1/05 overnight into 2/o5 as a pacific trough winds up. With this dominant feature, the questions inevitably focus on the timing, location and mode of convection.

As it stands with the 0Z GFS that I looked at, the timing might be sub-optimal in that the main height falls, or 'destabilisation', during late afternoon / evening occurs from 0z (7pm) through to 3z (eg from -13C [18z] to -24C [03z] eg around Hays Ks; in the dry air). The rich surface moisture and low-level winds, with respect to both strength and projected trajectories (850 is ssw), are slightly mismatched and are somewhat further east (~east of 96W line) of the said mid-level trough axis. So it is not all cut-and-dried for a tornado outbreak, and with such progressive troughs the timing is crucial. Other issues at a glance. There is the threat of a surging cold front being dominant in initiating storms, with the prospect of storms firing up in numbers along the western extent in limited moisture with the front and under stronger mid-level cooling. This can promote cold-pooling and up-scale development into a complex during the evening in areas further east, where parameters would otherwise likely favour strong tornadoes.

Overall looking good though, but a nail-biting build-up for anyone chasing. 
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Offline Mike

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #49 on: 30 April 2008, 09:51:53 AM »
Here's a link to some tornadoes that dropped Monday April 28 2008 (their time)  on the east coast.  200 injured and one death which may not have been a result of the tornado.

http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=8239023&nav=23iidhDw
« Last Edit: 30 April 2008, 12:33:54 PM by Jimmy Deguara »
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Offline Jimmy Deguara

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #50 on: 30 April 2008, 12:40:28 PM »
Mike,

I have found out from other chasers that the photograph below look suspicious as to perhaps not be from the area. Is anyone familiar with the area that could possibly confirm the landscape?

This tornado and landspout looks like the 24th May 2004 tornadic event in southern Nebraska

http://www.wvec.com/perl/common/slideshow/sspop.pl?recid=9485&nextimage=39

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« Last Edit: 30 April 2008, 12:46:26 PM by Jimmy Deguara »
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Offline Harley Pearman

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #51 on: 30 April 2008, 02:19:02 PM »
I have been reading about three tornadoes occurring in the US state of Virginia via CNN.com and associated networks.

In addition to the weather channels and weather web sites, CNN has provided links to the various television stations such as WTRK (With live coverage), WVEC and the National Weather Service including photo galleries and video coverage.

One tornado appears to have injured 200, 28/4/2008 in Suffolk. This appears to be the strongest of the three twisters to hit the state of Virginia. A fatality was originally reported but this has been determined to be unrelated to the event.

Another tornado has hit Colonial Heights, approximately 100 km NW of Suffolk near the city of Richmond and a third twister has caused some damage near the town of Lawrenceville about 110 km south of Richmond.


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Offline David C

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #52 on: 01 May 2008, 05:19:42 PM »
Regarding the 1st. Still have several concerns as far as tornado potential. That 20C isotherm at 850 is awful close to the dryline - would not want the lid any hotter in this situation. I don't see substantial upper level cooling happening till after dark either. Veered 850mb flow is never good, so will be interesting to see what happens. There's a bit of upper level moisture being picked up too although I doubt it will factor in terms of cloudiness inhibiting insolation

Pros. It looks as though mid 60s dp could be realised (certainly hope so otherwise, given capping and lack of strong forcing then forget daytime storms). Delta region of upper level jet stream in place. Cold front looks way back and wont figure until the night. Overall, shear is excellent so, aside from that tendency for the the 850 winds to be SSW, strong tornadoes are possible.

I would like to be in Enid tonight and be prepared to drive east. I think, despite aforementioned concerns, that there will be a few significant tornadic supercells tomorrow esp NE Oklahoma and across the border into Kansas.
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Offline Michael Bath

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #53 on: 02 May 2008, 01:16:25 AM »
Why is there such interchange between degrees C and degrees F - do the US chasers do this as well? I see upper temps are generally always in degrees Celsius yet surface dew points and temperature in degrees Fahrenheit.  It would help if any use of F could include the equivalent C value though I suppose it's because terms like 'high 80s' 'mid 60s' etc don't match Celsius values too well.

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Offline Macca

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #54 on: 02 May 2008, 07:00:34 AM »
Hi all,

I arrived in the US on Monday after a few (interesting) days at work last week in Vancouver,  Canada and am chasing with Brad Hannon, Andrej Matko and Marko Korosec.  We have been cruising for a few days watching as the models have toyed with us about tomorrow (Thursday here).  We are starting to get into the timezone of more confluence between the models so its time for a forecast.

There are a few areas which have been suggested as potential targets.  The warmfront in Iowa, the triple point (warm front vs cold front) in north eastern Nebraska, or the dryline through eastern Kansas and Oklahoma. 

A surface low is deepening over western Kansas/eastern Colorado in response to a strong upper level trough.  This is expected to deepen further overnight and move eastwards along the Kansas/Nebraska border.  As the pressure falls (and has fallen over the last 24hrs) over the southern plains, strong southerlies have returned and moisture is gradually flowing northwards from the gulf of Mexico.  At 8pm Wednesday DP's are currently 56f over a reasonable portion of central Oklahoma with 60-65f DP's through southern Texas.  The LLJ will continue all night tonight and tomorrow with 30-45knt southerlies which will push this moisture northwards.  How far this goes, nobody knows (seriously...there is substantial debate about this).  In addition to this, a strong warm layer (cap) is coming in across the top of this moisture from about 870mb and above with 850mb winds of 35-50knts from the SSW.  So the moisture depth is not HUGE (but ok IMO), the moisture (amount) is questionable as to how far north it is going to get, and the cap is strong so lots of quetions. 

The Iowa target is being suggested to be a potential tornado producer with DP's forecast to get into the high 50's-60f (13-15C) as the pool up against the warm front and the directional shear is nice with lower level shear being south east to easterly upper level flow being south westerly, however, the speed of the shear is in question with only 25-30knts at 500mb.  The best upper level shear is not due to arrive in this area until much (much) later.  With the lowish DP's (and the quality of moisture being in question as well),
instability may not be that great.  There is also the cap which looks to be relatively strong in this area too.  So...IF the cap breaks and IF the DP's can reach the upper end of the scale (ie 60f+), shear *might* be good enough for supercells and possible tornadoes (and hail to 2 inches).

The Nebraska target is under similar conditions to the above, however, there will be stronger convergence as the front surges eastwards so the issue of breaking the cap will be far less in this location (as the convergence between the cold front and the warm front will be quite nice).  The issues with this area are that it is even further for the moisture to travel (although pooling "in" the triple point could see DP's being ok) and also the surging of the cold front could see storms being rapidly undercut by cold air.  In addition to this, this area's location in relation to the upper low will see upper level shear being more S'ly in orientation and as such, directional shear will be less with SE'ly's at the surface and
S'lys in the uppers.  This is the "guaranteed storm" target.  There will be storms here and they are likely to be severe but I would suspect these will be shorter lived and unlikely to produce tornadoes.  Once the front moves through and the upper trough moves over this area, there is also the chance of snow in the early morning hours on Friday...rofl!!

The Oklahoma/Kansas target is the most interesting of them all in that there are serious questions over the cap breaking....but IF it breaks, it is likely that there will be some very severe storms with strong tornadoes possible.  As this is the southern most of the three areas I have mentioned, the moisture is probably going to be best in this area.  The dryline is set to extend south of the cold front from north central Kansas through just east of central Kansas and Oklahoma ("the I-35 corridor").  DP's are forecast by various models to get into the mid 60's (18C or so).  There is a lot of debate at this stage as to whether this will actually verify (but as I type, the 9pm data is in and DP's are looking healthier in southern Texas with some nice 64-68f DPs).  Also, as you head further south along the dryline, you head into more strongly capped air.  850mb temps are pushing just on 20C (thou vary between 17 and 20C depending on which model) which is my cut-off for chasing although i have been known to test 850mb temps exceeding this on various occassions - all unsucessful.  Convergence along the dryline doesn't appear that it is going to be strong at this stage and models are showing the cap to be virtually/completely eroded by 00z (7pm - late!).  The area I would expect to have the best chance at breaking the cap would be the intersection of the dryline and the cold front.  As noted above, this is set to be somewhere around north central Kansas by late tomorrow (around Emporia, Kansas).  So...lets assume the cap breaks (just for fun).  With surface winds from the south at 35knts, the LLJ in this area tomorrow evening is forecast to be around from the SSW at 35-40knts and the 500mb jet is nosing into this area with SW'ly winds of 50-60knts.  With temps in the low 80's and DP's in the mid 60's, CAPE is approaching (or even exceeding) 3000j/kg and with shear like that and lowish LCL's, supercells and tornadoes would be a definite possibility.  The cap *could* break further down the dryline (as far south as central eastern oklahoma), in which case, any storms which do develop would likely have very large hail (to 3.5 inches) and tornadoes. 

So...after all that...what is our plan.  We are currently in Wichita, Kansas (on I-35).  We are going to see how the moisture is recovering tomorrow and also how the sat pic looks during the afternoon.  We can head NE towards Emporia quite easily (about 1.5hrs away) and also eastwards easily if need be.  At this stage, I could see us heading towards the Emporia area simply as it should be the best chance at breaking the cap (with shear and instability being pretty much the same from there right down along the dryline). 

Will post another update tomorrow.  SPC is likely only to issue a slight risk for much of the area due to the uncertainty surrounding initiation but they will probably "hatch" the dryline so as to say that if storms develop, they will likely be severe.  (Currently a slight risk and 30% chance of severe over much of the area/s mentioned above). 

Macca (& crew).

Offline David C

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #55 on: 02 May 2008, 07:58:31 AM »
Why is there such interchange between degrees C and degrees F - do the US chasers do this as well? I see upper temps are generally always in degrees Celsius yet surface dew points and temperature in degrees Fahrenheit.  It would help if any use of F could include the equivalent C value though I suppose it's because terms like 'high 80s' 'mid 60s' etc don't match Celsius values too well.

regards, Michael

Hi Michael;

When you talk surface obs and everyday weather, everything is in degrees F, so it is just easier to go with the flow. On the other hand charts and things more scientific do use SI (edit: and derived) units.

« Last Edit: 02 May 2008, 12:41:39 PM by David C »
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Offline Macca

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #56 on: 03 May 2008, 12:55:11 AM »
Hi all,

Currently in Fredonia in south eastern Kansas.  SPC have a moderate risk out for this area :).  The dryline is about 20mi to our west and is aligned NE/SW.  This is allowing the southerly winds to converge nicely into it.  General consensus is that the cap will break in the 6-8pm time frame with any storms which develop rapidly becoming severe.  DP's are a little lower than we'd hope but have managed to get into the 62-63f range (17C or so).  Surface temps are hitting around 28C and upper level support is on its way from the west.  Shear is nice with the LLJ at about 35knts at the moment.  The upper trough is causing a second surface low to develop over western oklahoma and this combined with dirunal cooling (?) help drag the dryline west again from about 6pm and also in response to the developing surface low, the low level winds should back to the south east, increasing chances of tornadoes LATE today.

We will hang here for now with CAPE of 4000j/kg heading this way from northern Oklahoma.

Macca & Crew.

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #57 on: 03 May 2008, 05:59:57 AM »

SEVERE WEATHER STATEMENT NATIONAL
WEATHER SERVICE TULSA OK838 PM CDT THU MAY 1 2008OKC113-117-020230-/O.CON.KTSA.TO.W.0059.000000T0000Z-080502T0230Z/OSAGE OK-PAWNEE OK-838 PM CDT THU MAY 1 2008...
A TORNADO WARNING REMAINS IN EFFECT UNTIL 930 PM CDT FOR PAWNEE AND WESTERN OSAGE COUNTIES...
AT 834 PM CDT...WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR AND STORM SPOTTERS CONTINUED TO TRACK A LARGE AND DANGEROUS TORNADO. THIS TORNADIC STORM WAS LOCATED NEAR RALSTON...MOVING NORTHEAST AT 30 MPH.
A LARGE TORNADO HAS BEEN CONFIRMED...TAKE COVER IMMEDIATELY!

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Offline Harley Pearman

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #58 on: 04 May 2008, 02:57:32 AM »
Tornadoes - Kansas City Missouri 2/5/2008

I have been looking at the National Weather Service and their severe weather reports and at 8.30 am (Eastern Australian Time), severe weather watches and warnings are in force for the following counties in Missouri:-

Bates, Cass, Henry, Johnson and Petts.

A line of thunderstorms moved across Oklahoma and into Arkansas overnight and throughout the day. Last night I was watching on various radars a narrow squall line in eastern Oklahoma and western Arkansas pushing east and north east and severe weather watches were in force for many counties affected by this.

Kansas City has suffered a direct hit from two tornadoes which has left hundreds of homes and businesses damaged.

A high end EF2 tornado with wind speeds of between 111 and 135 miles per hour (About 180 km / h to 219 km / h) hit 2 am Friday and cut a swath 2 miles (3.2 kilometres) across North Kansas City near Liberty.

A second tornado hit a little further south in Gladstone (Actually suburbs of Kansas City).

There may have been a further tornado near Independence NE Kansas City as well. There is debate in the National Weather Service as to whether the third one was a tornado. It occurred on the leading edge of a bow echo.

Up to 23,000 homes are still without power but 40,000 homes lost power during the peak of the storms.

Initial estimates (From CNN) suggest the damage is as high as $50 million.

The system as I write this post has pushed well into Missouri now. This is obviously a strong system. The air behind the front is cold that some winter advisory watches have been issued including snow in a few but more northern areas.

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Offline Harley Pearman

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Re: 2008 US tornado season discussion
« Reply #59 on: 04 May 2008, 05:44:30 AM »
Further to my earlier post and of interest, viewing the National Weather Service network, I have been watching the same storm system push across western Tennessee and eastern Arkansas.

This is indeed a major storm system.

At 11 am Eastern Australia time, there are no less than 4 to 5 tornado watch boxes close to the cities of Memphis and Tupelo and stretching SW into Arkansas.

I have been watching a thunderstorm NE of Tupelo intensify. It is severe warned (11.10 am Eastern Australia Time) and a tornado watch box is in place around it. This storm looks exceptionally strong and capable of producing a tornado. The radar signatures and signatures of it suggests large hail as well.

There are other severe storms SW of Memphis as well, some developing and some mature.

There is a narrow line of severe weather situated in this region.

Tornadoes - 2/5/08:

There were reports of 23 tornadoes 2/5/2008 via the National Weather Service.

The best ones are:-

1) A single storm near Ralston (Osage County - Oklahoma) - (David mentions this storm in his post) produced two tornadoes simultaneously. The storm tracked through Pawnee and Osage Counties. Also at Pawhuska - Osage County, there were other sightings and reports of two tornadoes on the ground as well.

2) A tornado tracked 7 miles (11 km) across countryside near Goodhope (Douglas County Missouri).

3) A large cone tornado tracked across countryside near Blackburn (Pawnee county) Oklahoma.

The rest were weaker or smaller tornadoes.

Harley Pearman